Classpect discussion

[classpectanon]

The alpha and beta trolls are not perfect clones. If they were they would have had to be sent back to become themselves, which would be impossible.

I'm with muttman on this one

but also, corollary, as someone who has been studying classpects so long it's literally in my name --

Classpects are a game thing, they are based on what Sburb thinks your issues are. Even if paradox slime does make perfect clones (which it does not), the circumstances of your birth and how you are raised affect the kind of life you lead, the challenges you hold, and your personality facets, which, in turn, changes the kind of challenge that Sburb would throw at you.

[thorondraco]

The alpha and beta trolls are not perfect clones. If they were they would have had to be sent back to become themselves, which would be impossible.

There probably are differences but they seem to be minor. Think its implied they are practically identical physically but we don't know if how similar they are genetically.

Then again the question with them is who came first. We don't actually know who the 'parents' were with the trolls or any specifics o alterations with how it went down. Beta trolls could be the parents for all we know. Far as we know all that paradox space needed was 'this group came first' to establish the difference. "The beta group came into existence and the alpha group was created from the Beta group' for example.

[thorondraco]

The alpha and beta trolls are not perfect clones. If they were they would have had to be sent back to become themselves, which would be impossible.

I'm with muttman on this one

but also, corollary, as someone who has been studying classpects so long it's literally in my name --

Classpects are a game thing, they are based on what Sburb thinks your issues are. Even if paradox slime does make perfect clones (which it does not), the circumstances of your birth and how you are raised affect the kind of life you lead, the challenges you hold, and your personality facets, which, in turn, changes the kind of challenge that Sburb would throw at you.

Their world is, somewhat inconsistently, implied to be rather gamelike so who knows?

Sburb kinda controls all of those aspects in a way to ensure someone who is meant to be a specific classpect is that classpect. But by all means without sburb and paradox space lording over people there is no telling what they could become. Would a perfect clone of John be an Heir if he grew up like Rose of Dave did? Its really hard to tell at this time. Especially how all the classpect and ultimate self nonsense works for torlls. Do the likes of Aranea and Vriska have their own separate ultimate selves, or do they share the same one? It seems more likely they have separate but the possibility of them having the Same ultimate self is not implausible considering how close ancestors and descendants are in appearance.
I think a big decider of how troll biology works would be if Tavros in some incarnation grows wings.Tavros seems like a big point of contention considering Rufioh and the Summoner grew wings while he doesn't ahve any. Sign that they are very different' genetically. But if its actually a physical maturation thing and tavros just didn't live long enough to grow them, then that would change things. As Tavros died he didn't age, unlike god tiers who seem to still physically mature. That or somehow rufioh got a redbull and it literally gave the bastard wings.

I think its implied that non player or player related beings have aspects too. But we don't know why only the players seem to develop powers. Though they only seem to develop them after they start the game... Maybe being in the medium triggers it?
I think Hiveswap has examples of trolls with developing powers, sburb powers. Specifically Boldir and Marvus. Those two... yea something is up with those two.

[Alt-Universe Wash]

Sylph of Space here - shared with Kanaya (yay!). Couple random thoughts:

The whole Sylph class seems pretty broadly/poorly defined (especially with regards to what that would mean for a space player), but I kind of like the implications of "healing others through creation" or helping to heal (stuff generally, I guess) through creation. I mean, yeah, it's a fake thing in a comic that works kind of like a horoscope/MBTI in its genericness, but it also feels "right" for me. Kind of ties into some stuff from my IRL background and turning to creative pursuits as a way of coping with life as a survivor. So yeah, I'll take it!

[egg]

Another thing - I know the Sylph is kind of a female-associated class (not specifically, but implied). I'm a man, but the idea of helping to dismantle a gendered construct by being part of a typically female class actually makes me feel more at home with the class.

It seems gendered classes used to be a thing, but then in a tweet Hussie said that people are allowed to make OCs with genders that don't "match" their class. I chalk it up to Calliope's life situation, which leads to their own changes in gender identity in the epilogues.

[JakeMorph]

andrew saying gendered classes dont matter for OCs isnt exactly the same as him saying they Aren't Real In Homestuck? like, if someone asked him if they could make an oc with sparkling pink blood he's going to say yes, but that doesn't mean it's suddenly a blood colour trolls have.

that being said i wouldn't be surprised if h^2 and other stuff in the future forewent the concept altogether.

[thorondraco]

Another thing - I know the Sylph is kind of a female-associated class (not specifically, but implied). I'm a man, but the idea of helping to dismantle a gendered construct by being part of a typically female class actually makes me feel more at home with the class.

It seems gendered classes used to be a thing, but then in a tweet Hussie said that people are allowed to make OCs with genders that don't "match" their class. I chalk it up to Calliope's life situation, which leads to their own changes in gender identity in the epilogues.

Changes/realizing she was literally an actual hermaphrodite species.

[egg]

andrew saying gendered classes dont matter for OCs isnt exactly the same as him saying they Aren't Real In Homestuck? like, if someone asked him if they could make an oc with sparkling pink blood he's going to say yes, but that doesn't mean it's suddenly a blood colour trolls have.

that being said i wouldn't be surprised if h^2 and other stuff in the future forewent the concept altogether.

While true, I was just saying that it doesn't really matter that much, and I feel like people have ignored the gendered class rule for so long by now that it may as well not exist.
HS^2 is staffed by a lot of queer artists - doubt they'd approve of the concept.

[Alt-Universe Wash]

andrew saying gendered classes dont matter for OCs isnt exactly the same as him saying they Aren't Real In Homestuck? like, if someone asked him if they could make an oc with sparkling pink blood he's going to say yes, but that doesn't mean it's suddenly a blood colour trolls have.

that being said i wouldn't be surprised if h^2 and other stuff in the future forewent the concept altogether.

While true, I was just saying that it doesn't really matter that much, and I feel like people have ignored the gendered class rule for so long by now that it may as well not exist.
HS^2 is staffed by a lot of queer artists - doubt they'd approve of the concept.

I always found the gendered class idea to be a kind of uncomfortable one to begin with, so I'm more than happy to discard it in favor of doing whatever the hell we all want to!

[Alt-Universe Wash]

TFW taking a goddamn Homestuck quiz pushes your brain over the edge of realizing your gender identity. I win all the dork points. ALL. Of. Them.

[calamityCons]

I have similar reasons for my classpect decision lol. Prince of Doom affirms my gender AND reflects my attitude toward the concept of destiny.

[Alt-Universe Wash]

I have similar reasons for my classpect decision lol. Prince of Doom affirms my gender AND reflects my attitude toward the concept of destiny.

I also strongly identify with Kanaya as a character in a few ways which is part of why I wasn't budging when I saw the results, although my personal aesthetic is a little more "rustic" than hers is.

[egg]

I'm an asshole that hates fun and wants to be right all the time. There's a whole lot of complex reasons (including an entire google document) as for why I chose this particular Classpect but that's the gist of it.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

I figured out why Dirk, although he's a Prince of Heart, doesn't seem very destructive to me. I mean, he created another version of himself. That's the opposite of destruction. He's also not the kind of person who would tear souls out of people's bodies like Jake's brain ghost. Plus, lots of other classes end up wreaking havoc and destruction, so as a descriptor, "one who destroys" is vague, and "one who allows destruction" is complete nonsense. I think the verb is wrong.

This misunderstanding stems from the things Gamzee omitted from the Rose Lalonde's accounting of events. She had incomplete information and from there she came to the wrong conclusion.

UU: i have read mUch aboUt yoUr story in texts and have pieced together the overarching, exceedingly complicated saga as best as i coUld. i have as mUch aUthority over these events as a historian, and am at the mercy of my soUrces.

Most of the other blot-outs seem to target one member of the post-scratch troll group. Some guy who drinks a lot of soda? These omissions strike you as much less consequential.

Bro is associated with hidden cameras. All around his penthouse apartment, keeping a watchful eye. Seers see things, right? Yeah, but he's not a seer. Obviously. Seers watch to learn. Mages listen to others (Meulin's ironic deafness, Sollux hearing the voices of those about to die) to learn. Princes? Princes are seeing, but they are not watching because of curiosity. They are paranoid and are hyperaware of their aspect and how it can be dangerous. He passed on the boon of paranoia to Dave, and that expresses itself whenever Dave is confronted by the deaths of his alt-timeline selves. Death is the domain of time.

Since Dirk is a Prince of Heart, one who is afraid of self, he's actually more careful about his aspect than usual, because he's afraid of what he's capable of. He's afraid of himself.

Bards are scared too. Gamzee is a Bard of Rage. Before, I thought rage was about being scary, because people are scary when they're mad, and also because he mentions being scared a whole lot. But Rage has been confirmed out-of-universe to have to do with disbelief, like the suspension of disbelief, or a lack of faith. So you could say that a Bard of Rage is "one who is afraid of losing faith." That aptly sums up his character development.

But what's more important to me than getting the particular verb right is we no longer have to pair destruction with healing and can try other options. "To deny," "to be ignorant of," and "to pretend/be pretentious" also work well. But I feel as if, whatever, it is, it's the opposite of understanding, but not the opposite of knowing. At times they may express that they wish they didn't know.

It is captchalogued through your MIRACLE MODUS. You have absolutely no idea how this thing works. And you don't want to know.
There are Princes who believe they know shit and try to teach their bullshit.

Doc Scratch is composed of Equius Zahhak and the Auto-Responder. Doc Scratch is themed around Void.

That's true. But the gaps in my knowledge exist by design. They are the pillars of shadow on which my comprehensive vision is built. Necessary pockets of void meant to effectuate outcomes I've foreseen and which will require my influence. Each dark pocket, in time, will be filled.

This is pretty clear. That leaves the other half of his title to be Prince.

What is Doc Scratch's relationship to Void? To ambiguity, randomness, and the unknown? He reassures himself that he knows the stuff that matters, and that the stuff he doesn't know is important for him to not know. He reacts violently when he learns that Vriska has his cueball, making it blow up in her face. I guess he figures that, even if he hadn't meant to do that, he was meant to do that.

He also plays a question game with Rose, where he asks Rose questions to lead her to act against her best interests. This is called "playing dumb." So that's. That's fun.

His one fear is that not everything will explain itself to him.

Jokes are only temporary lies.
If the falsehood is never exposed, there is no punchline. If the punchline is never delivered, the lie is sealed forever, regardless of initial humorous intent. Lies are not funny.

My guy straight up faints when Andrew Hussie sneaks up on him, an author-insert known for having inexplicable interludes full of randumb humor. He has ceased. He talked big about how he only cared about the timeline that featured his birth and his death, but he never saw his last moments coming.

And that is the joke. The joke is that he never got to be in on the joke. It's quite the meta joke, which is a rather fitting fate for a narrator. It's at least 8 years later, and I just figured out there was a joke in Homestuck. It's a good joke.

In Dirk's case, I would interpret his title to mean "He who has no self-awareness."

TT: It seems to me you were dwelling within your dream awareness at the expense of your waking business again.
TT: I don't think you're as awesome a multi-tasker as you like to think. You know you kind of zombie the fuck out on this side when you get all contemplative on that side.

I think connecting these pairs of classes explains a lot of things, like how Meulin romanced Kankri in one timeline and Kurloz in the other. It explains why Eridan's wand made Sollux deaf to the voices of the imminently deceased and blind to the carnage, simultaneously nullifying his arc and letting him chill out. (which is a clever thing for him to do! otherwise he'd know that eridan was going to straight up kill feferi and would have done something) It explains why Terezi and Rose, on their off-game, indulged in addictive substances while Gamzee stayed sober. It explains why Dirk, Rose, and Terezi are teaming up together to do evil. It explains how Dirk is so stupid when it comes to gender, an aspect of identity. It explains why Rose said this:

ROSE: In Complacency of th—

She corrects herself.

ROSE: In the silly wizard story I wrote when I was a child,
ROSE: The realm most comparable to heaven existed in a state of subliminal conditionality, dependent on the inscience of the individual experiencing it.
ROSE: Which is to say that it would cease to exist the moment you realized what it was.
ROSE: And so, those with knowledge could never truly be happy.

And how she seems to be the only character who is genuinely happy with the chaotic way that things turned out.

In conclusion:

bardmode.png (6.82 KiB) Viewed 19666 times

[thorondraco]

I figured out why Dirk, although he's a Prince of Heart, doesn't seem very destructive to me. I mean, he created another version of himself. That's the opposite of destruction. He's also not the kind of person who would tear souls out of people's bodies like Jake's brain ghost. Plus, lots of other classes end up wreaking havoc and destruction, so as a descriptor, "one who destroys" is vague, and "one who allows destruction" is complete nonsense. I think the verb is wrong.

This misunderstanding stems from the things Gamzee omitted from the Rose Lalonde's accounting of events. She had incomplete information and from there she came to the wrong conclusion.

UU: i have read mUch aboUt yoUr story in texts and have pieced together the overarching, exceedingly complicated saga as best as i coUld. i have as mUch aUthority over these events as a historian, and am at the mercy of my soUrces.

Most of the other blot-outs seem to target one member of the post-scratch troll group. Some guy who drinks a lot of soda? These omissions strike you as much less consequential.

Bro is associated with hidden cameras. All around his penthouse apartment, keeping a watchful eye. Seers see things, right? Yeah, but he's not a seer. Obviously. Seers watch to learn. Mages listen to others (Meulin's ironic deafness, Sollux hearing the voices of those about to die) to learn. Princes? Princes are seeing, but they are not watching because of curiosity. They are paranoid and are hyperaware of their aspect and how it can be dangerous. He passed on the boon of paranoia to Dave, and that expresses itself whenever Dave is confronted by the deaths of his alt-timeline selves. Death is the domain of time.

Since Dirk is a Prince of Heart, one who is afraid of self, he's actually more careful about his aspect than usual, because he's afraid of what he's capable of. He's afraid of himself.

Bards are scared too. Gamzee is a Bard of Rage. Before, I thought rage was about being scary, because people are scary when they're mad, and also because he mentions being scared a whole lot. But Rage has been confirmed out-of-universe to have to do with disbelief, like the suspension of disbelief, or a lack of faith. So you could say that a Bard of Rage is "one who is afraid of losing faith." That aptly sums up his character development.

But what's more important to me than getting the particular verb right is we no longer have to pair destruction with healing and can try other options. "To deny," "to be ignorant of," and "to pretend/be pretentious" also work well. But I feel as if, whatever, it is, it's the opposite of understanding, but not the opposite of knowing. At times they may express that they wish they didn't know.

It is captchalogued through your MIRACLE MODUS. You have absolutely no idea how this thing works. And you don't want to know.
There are Princes who believe they know shit and try to teach their bullshit.

Doc Scratch is composed of Equius Zahhak and the Auto-Responder. Doc Scratch is themed around Void.

That's true. But the gaps in my knowledge exist by design. They are the pillars of shadow on which my comprehensive vision is built. Necessary pockets of void meant to effectuate outcomes I've foreseen and which will require my influence. Each dark pocket, in time, will be filled.

This is pretty clear. That leaves the other half of his title to be Prince.

What is Doc Scratch's relationship to Void? To ambiguity, randomness, and the unknown? He reassures himself that he knows the stuff that matters, and that the stuff he doesn't know is important for him to not know. He reacts violently when he learns that Vriska has his cueball, making it blow up in her face. I guess he figures that, even if he hadn't meant to do that, he was meant to do that.

He also plays a question game with Rose, where he asks Rose questions to lead her to act against her best interests. This is called "playing dumb." So that's. That's fun.

His one fear is that not everything will explain itself to him.

Jokes are only temporary lies.
If the falsehood is never exposed, there is no punchline. If the punchline is never delivered, the lie is sealed forever, regardless of initial humorous intent. Lies are not funny.

My guy straight up faints when Andrew Hussie sneaks up on him, an author-insert known for having inexplicable interludes full of randumb humor. He has ceased. He talked big about how he only cared about the timeline that featured his birth and his death, but he never saw his last moments coming.

And that is the joke. The joke is that he never got to be in on the joke. It's quite the meta joke, which is a rather fitting fate for a narrator. It's at least 8 years later, and I just figured out there was a joke in Homestuck. It's a good joke.

In Dirk's case, I would interpret his title to mean "He who has no self-awareness."

TT: It seems to me you were dwelling within your dream awareness at the expense of your waking business again.
TT: I don't think you're as awesome a multi-tasker as you like to think. You know you kind of zombie the fuck out on this side when you get all contemplative on that side.

I think connecting these pairs of classes explains a lot of things, like how Meulin romanced Kankri in one timeline and Kurloz in the other. It explains why Eridan's wand made Sollux deaf to the voices of the imminently deceased and blind to the carnage, simultaneously nullifying his arc and letting him chill out. It explains why Terezi and Rose, on their off-game, indulged in addictive substances while Gamzee stayed sober. It explains why Dirk, Rose, and Terezi are teaming up together to do evil. It explains how Dirk is so stupid when it comes to gender, an aspect of identity. It explains why Rose said this:

ROSE: In Complacency of th—

She corrects herself.

ROSE: In the silly wizard story I wrote when I was a child,
ROSE: The realm most comparable to heaven existed in a state of subliminal conditionality, dependent on the inscience of the individual experiencing it.
ROSE: Which is to say that it would cease to exist the moment you realized what it was.
ROSE: And so, those with knowledge could never truly be happy.

And how she seems to be the only character who is genuinely happy with the chaotic way that things turned out.

In conclusion:

bardmode.png

I have always seen that bards are princes are delusional about their aspects. That they reject them inherently and hyperfocus on their opposites. Gamzee focus on chaos and faith, Dirk on logic. Eridan focuses on 'rationality and reality'. Of course they all do so imperfectly because of they are fixating on their opposites.
But i think what you said covers it much more effectively. They aren't delusional of their aspects, they FEAR their aspects. They fear understanding themselves. And one tends to try and destroy what they fear. Its why gamzee drowned himself in pie, and why he follows Lord english's voice. He feared facing reality.

I rage is facing reality as it is and hope is molding reality towards what you belive. Combating reality through comprehension and emotion, combating reality with belief and willpower. Both of it is about will and that is why it can be so powerful.

Honestly we have no idea what Dirk is planning at this stage. He wants to be hated and play the villain. Terezi's motivation i eel is just to tag along to use the Ectobiology tech to try and revive John. Which will fail because shenanigans i wager.

That might be an interesting point with Doc, but his weakness is Void though. More so he has no means of dealing with the Void at all, and falters before it the times he encounters it. Let alone destroying the void. But yea he does not handle being ingorant or in the dark at all well.
In fact i imagine he flipped off the fucking handle when John altered the timeline. He knew John changed it. He would remember the original course, and then John's new course overwrote that original one. Worse, he literally interrupts Doc's monologue about Vriska's fate.
Basically that means the entirety of the Doc Scratch scene changed. But we never see how it was altered from Doc's monologue being interrupted. How he interacted with the Handmaid, Spades.

Then again he might be dabbling in the forces of the unknown in Hiveswap. At the end of friendsims he compared what he was doing with the Reader to 'throwing quantum spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks'. Put simply, he and whomever narrated friendsims was spitballing the entire thing, the narrator trying to guide the Reader towards friendship while Doc acted to press the reset button every time he failed. Cause he could not predict what would succeed or fail and they had to act quickly.

We have no idea what Doc's motivations are in Hiveswap and Friendsims or what point he is operating from in his timeline.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

In fact i imagine he flipped off the fucking handle when John altered the timeline. He knew John changed it.

No, he has no idea. It's unknown to him. Remember, the scene is messed up from the record player, and Doc Scratch is just making his best guess of what happened from what he knows of the characters and how they would all act. His guess is absurdly, because he's a funny calculator man who knows a lot of numbers, but he doesn't know about the house juju. That's one of his dark pockets. If he knew John changed it, that would be like letting him in on the joke.

Yeah, I'm not really sure how Doc Scratch is dealing with the MSPA reader. MSPA only did noncanon stuff, so I don't get it either.

[thorondraco]

In fact i imagine he flipped off the fucking handle when John altered the timeline. He knew John changed it.

No, he has no idea. It's unknown to him. Remember, the scene is messed up from the record player, and Doc Scratch is just making his best guess of what happened from what he knows of the characters and how they would all act. His guess is absurdly, because he's a funny calculator man who knows a lot of numbers, but he doesn't know about the house juju. That's one of his dark pockets. If he knew John changed it, that would be like letting him in on the joke.

Yeah, I'm not really sure how Doc Scratch is dealing with the MSPA reader. MSPA only did noncanon stuff, so I don't get it either.

They kinda shifted tones with the Friendsims from what i remember. Essentially they started by saying they were noncanon, maybe side canon. They went on to say then that it was Extra canonical, and i am pretty sure someone said that they might have actually rewritten their original story to include the friendsims additoin.
They stated months ago that their process was writing, art, then shipping it off to the coding team. Seems a bit inefficient but its probably so they have flexibility cause what they want to do is constantly in flux. They might have abandoned the original draft for act 2 and the new process allows them flexibility without having to do that. Cause they have almost thirty god damn Sims they made and the characters needed to match them better.

The pesterquest itself is also showing signs it is a lot more than just side content, considering they literally have the reader, presumably ACTUALLY fucking up Homestuck. I almost think that the Dissolution that Rose talked about is being caused not by John not acting, but the Reader. We already had an easteregg with Dirk sensing what the reader was doing after all so the connections are there.

More than likely he had no idea about the Juju... No that isn't right he would know about the Juju but not John accessing its power or that the power came from the Juju. His sight is blind to the Void and that is where John got the power. But John appearing in the middle of his monologue would be within his vision.
Also he was speculating about Vriska fighting Bec. He knew what was going on with Vriska and Terezi cause that was happening in the alpha, not a doomed timeline.

I think a way to put it is that Doc Scratch had the Script of the entire story in his head. At the very least the stuff that happens in the alpha and sessions, perhaps his vision blurred completely during the Void trip. The White cueball is omniscient, and so he was literally omniscient. But he loses vision in anything BUT the alpha timeline and its events. But Retcon alters the alpha timeline and thus likely, he would see the alteration to the timeline. But not that they are Going to happen, just wen the happen.

[calamityCons]

Obviously the solution is to befriend Doc Scratch in Pesterquest.

[egg]

I figured out why Dirk, although he's a Prince of Heart, doesn't seem very destructive to me. I mean, he created another version of himself.

I don't mind the theory, but I'll just say that if we treated Calliope as unreliable this whole system would barely have any legs to stand on, as she's the #1 source of exposition for it. For now, I've only decided to think that she's "wrong" about gendered classes because Hussie disavowed it and I think it's a really stupid and needlessly restrained thing to focus on. The thing about active/passive I said a bit ago is more of a joke, and because active/passive has always been a headache of a discussion for me and not one I find to be particularly fulfilling due to just how personally people take it.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

I gave the reason why I thought the class pair in particular would be unreliable. (Gamzee's censorship of his shameful past) It's her dark pocket, if you will. It's disingenuous to say that I'm throwing literally everything into question.

The example of Prince and Bard that she gives is a good model for explaining the way class pairings work. In that sense, it's as good as her explanations of "Rogue and Thieves" and "Life and Doom." Passive classes give (+) and active classes take (-). Passive classes of one aspect can seem similar to an active class of its opposite aspect. It's good stuff, and a good model. She probably figured out a bunch of classes better than we could because she probably got to read more about the Alternian session that we only got to see bits and pieces of. It's just Bards, and by extension Princes, that are her area of weakness.

There's a whole lot I don't understand very well because I haven't meditated on the right characters. I'm just plain fixated on Gamzee right now. Maybe later I'll figure out whatever similarities there are between Dave and Jake as the Knight and the Page, but for now I don't really get it.

EDIT: OH YES PLEASE LET ME BEFRIEND THE CHARMING, PRETENTIOUS PUPPET BOY. PLEASE OFFER ME CANDY.