lore questions and answers thread

[JakeMorph]

sort of the opposite of a simple questions and answers thread: a thread for when you want an in-depth answer about something in the homestuck universe.

anyone is free to ask and answer! theories and speculative answers welcome, but try to keep it rooted within established material. bonus points for sourced answers

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

There are Horrorterrors in the furthest ring, and there's the "gods of the furthest ring" and there's god tiers. Since the 48 player squiddle session is bullshit, what's up with all of that? Are they still alive?

[magnanimousLad]

Why do the Rings of Life and Void exist? Like, I've gathered that they're basically the unprototyped Queens' Rings, what I'm wondering is why they have the powers they do, what benefit is it to Sburb to give them these abilities? Also, why does Sburb even have Sprites^2 as a mechanic intrinsic to itself, why are they a thing that can happen and why would Sburb give them additional abilities and awareness on top of regular sprites?

[egg]

Why do the Rings of Life and Void exist? Like, I've gathered that they're basically the unprototyped Queens' Rings, what I'm wondering is why they have the powers they do, what benefit is it to Sburb to give them these abilities? Also, why does Sburb even have Sprites^2 as a mechanic intrinsic to itself, why are they a thing that can happen and why would Sburb give them additional abilities and awareness on top of regular sprites?

The former question goes unanswered canonically. If I had to guess on a meta level, Hussie once again wanted to parody 'classic RPGs' with unusual, highly powerful rare items that are sought after by players. The latter doesn't need a specific answer - it seems to simply be a consequence of the fact that a Sprite with just one prototyping can still accept another, and a Sprite can prototype itself with anything (with a canonical preference for the deceased or imminently deceased), which would certainly include another Sprite. It works too, as Davesprite comes from a doomed timeline and Rosesprite was prototyped from a dead Rose from the pre-retcon timeline. For the second part of the Sprite question, it seems to me that's less Sburb's fault, and again, another consequence of the fact that Sprites gain attributes from whatever they're prototyped with, and the awareness sort of adds upon one another.
It makes sense from a game perspective. A lot of games, like Dwarf Fortress, have unique consequences for unusual interactions, which is an an actual trope, so it makes sense that it'd be remarked upon here. Sburb's origins beyond the frog temple code are never elaborated upon, and likely never will be.

[thorondraco]

Why do the Rings of Life and Void exist? Like, I've gathered that they're basically the unprototyped Queens' Rings, what I'm wondering is why they have the powers they do, what benefit is it to Sburb to give them these abilities? Also, why does Sburb even have Sprites^2 as a mechanic intrinsic to itself, why are they a thing that can happen and why would Sburb give them additional abilities and awareness on top of regular sprites?

The former question goes unanswered canonically. If I had to guess on a meta level, Hussie once again wanted to parody 'classic RPGs' with unusual, highly powerful rare items that are sought after by players. The latter doesn't need a specific answer - it seems to simply be a consequence of the fact that a Sprite with just one prototyping can still accept another, and a Sprite can prototype itself with anything (with a canonical preference for the deceased or imminently deceased), which would certainly include another Sprite. It works too, as Davesprite comes from a doomed timeline and Rosesprite was prototyped from a dead Rose from the pre-retcon timeline. For the second part of the Sprite question, it seems to me that's less Sburb's fault, and again, another consequence of the fact that Sprites gain attributes from whatever they're prototyped with, and the awareness sort of adds upon one another.
It makes sense from a game perspective. A lot of games, like Dwarf Fortress, have unique consequences for unusual interactions, which is an an actual trope, so it makes sense that it'd be remarked upon here. Sburb's origins beyond the frog temple code are never elaborated upon, and likely never will be.

I think it will in HS^2, in time at least. We have dirk fucking with the sburb stuff himself.

[PilotBlackSmith]

so is ectobiology really necessary in sburb or not? from what I've seen ectobiology was more of a tool that players are able to utilize but isn't necessary to beat sburb instead of a major necessary step in the game's process.
also, were there other sburb sessions on earth besides the kids session? the skaianet laboratory Rose went in at the beginning had a monitor with a lot of sessions showing up, did those other players also get to play the game and we just didn't get to see any of it or was only the kids session sucessful enough? I think Nannasprite talked with someone that was from another session but I don't remember it much

[thorondraco]

so is ectobiology really necessary in sburb or not? from what I've seen ectobiology was more of a tool that players are able to utilize but isn't necessary to beat sburb instead of a major necessary step in the game's process.
also, were there other sburb sessions on earth besides the kids session? the skaianet laboratory Rose went in at the beginning had a monitor with a lot of sessions showing up, did those other players also get to play the game and we just didn't get to see any of it or was only the kids session sucessful enough? I think Nannasprite talked with someone that was from another session but I don't remember it much

Nanna talks to some dude that knew Dad Egbert who god tiered. He died on his questing bed.

We have no idea what happened in those sessions or if they were even proper sburb sessions. Its possible that its simply because those are different stories not told here... Its almost like what happened with John and Terezi talking on the phone in the epilogues. Timelines converging.

Honestly there seems to be no reason why sessions can't utilize non paradox clones from what we have seen. The whole Troll Zodiac stuff, with Aspects being part of it implies that normal peeps can possible become players or even god tiers. Gain those powers.
It might be a control thing cause by being created by Sburb, sburb controls the player more effectively.

[thorondraco]

Okay i am both asking a question and making a statement.

Did John alter the, in unvierse, course of homestuck? As in change the story from its original route?

I 100% believe so because everything that had to do with retcon at its introduction, and now the Pesterquest use of it, is about altering the original course of things. It seems very clear that is what happened.
And yea if look at things outside of the story hussie probably planned this for a while. Though i do think something likely inspired the idea, though what we don't know. Out of story it is the same as always. John didn't come to life and punch hussie in the snout to establish dominance and then wrestle him into writing Game over and the new version of the story.
However Dirk didn't come to life, stuff Hussie into a closet and take over either. And alt calliope did not posses someone who is now wrestling Dirk over control. It was metaphorical with Hussie hiring some peeps to write it for him. So yea metaphorically John kinda took the stories off the rails.

But it seems like peeps have also come ot the conclusion that Retcon was 'planned all along' in universe too. That this is how it was going to go anyway and retcon is just a mechanism to the story. I personally think they completely overlooked the context clues with how it was implement in the webcomic. And ignoring that John literally said he was changing reality. And that in Pesterquest we litreally have someone with Retcon powers fucking reality over. And pesterquest seems to be a lot more than just side content. They are putting too much effort into this from my prespective.

Maybe i am missing something or maybe other people are. So the question repeats, Didn't John change reality?

[egg]

so is ectobiology really necessary in sburb or not? from what I've seen ectobiology was more of a tool that players are able to utilize but isn't necessary to beat sburb instead of a major necessary step in the game's process.
also, were there other sburb sessions on earth besides the kids session? the skaianet laboratory Rose went in at the beginning had a monitor with a lot of sessions showing up, did those other players also get to play the game and we just didn't get to see any of it or was only the kids session sucessful enough? I think Nannasprite talked with someone that was from another session but I don't remember it much

That was fedorafreak. There are other sessions, as seen in the image for the first part of Rose's walkthrough. All of these are implied to be deeply unsuccessful in some manner (at least in comparison to the sessions we follow in the comic). It is currently unknown whether a world can only have one successful session or not, though most signs point to yes.
Ectobiology is not strictly necessary as Caliborn and Calliope were born through normal means. (note that the way their egg is delivered is remniscent of the baby delivery meteors. This is likely just a visual callback and probably means nothing) However, their sessions were highly unusual, even in comparison to the other sessions seen in the comic, all of whom are said to differ from the regular in some manner. It may be that the meteor delivery method serves to facilitate the circumstances necessary for a session to happen in the first place, but that's entirely theoretical. Additionally, all the sessions in which ectobiology was confirmed to be involved were sessions that were Scratched or the result of a Scratch. Whether or not there's an actual correlation or it's simply a coincidence also cannot be confirmed.

[egg]

Okay i am both asking a question and making a statement.

Did John alter the, in unvierse, course of homestuck? As in change the story from its original route?

Yes. That's implied in several logs. That being said, Typheus was aware of these powers in a way closely interwoven to his Quest. It may be that he knew all along that's what he had to do, or the exact specifics of the Choice are always flexible, and John's quest was more about cleaning his planet, and the method in which he did so never mattered. This seems like the most likely option, as it has been shown to differ in alternate timelines.

[MorganMustDie]

There are Horrorterrors in the furthest ring, and there's the "gods of the furthest ring" and there's god tiers. Since the 48 player squiddle session is bullshit, what's up with all of that? Are they still alive?

An old theory from way back when posits that the horrorterrors were god tiers from other doomed sessions and timelines, unable to die but unable to leave their session. Without another purpose, they would just wander the void forever. A subtheory posed that spending too much time out in the void turned players into big tentacley monsters, and a counter theory instead posed that a majority of universes must be home to big tentacley monsters naturally. The thought that horrorterrors are god tiers also explained their ultimate-self-esque hivemind, and their ridiculously OP control over things like time, space, life and death (ie the entire existence of dreambubbles)

Of course, that's all just speculation. There's not much in-universe lore about these guys, despite how cool they might be. This theory was the closest I ever came to finding anything satisfying about them :/

[JakeMorph]

There are Horrorterrors in the furthest ring, and there's the "gods of the furthest ring" and there's god tiers. Since the 48 player squiddle session is bullshit, what's up with all of that? Are they still alive?

heroes who are in the god tiers aren't paradox space's only gods. rather, much like the phrase "god tier" in common internet vernacular referring to something that is of "godlike" quality, a hero in their god tiers is a hero whose power is on par with that of a god.

in much the same way the term 'demon' is used to describe both lord english and jack noir despite the both of them having rather different kinds of power, the 'gods' encompass a bunch of different kind of characters in the homestuck universe. like you mentioned, there are the horrorterrors, as well as the lower and middling gods, of which there are many more than 48. the giant frog/s worshiped by the people of prospit are also called gods. this can be compared to the demonheads and godheads in problem sleuth, who are simply characters that achieved high levels of power and used that power for evil, destructive purposes or benevolent, creative purposes, respectively. gcat is, of course, a "god cat", but doc scratch rejects the idea that he's a god just because of his first guardian powers. it seems to be a matter of opinion.

importantly, karkat often refers to himself and his friends as gods, even in cases where they aren't god tier. in this sense to be a "god" is also merely a role, as a creator. and just because the "squiddle session" isnt 100% true doesn't mean the horrorterrors couldn't have created a universe. the 48 signs gag exists as a subtle nod, but it's also there in the vertical symmetry of the story: jack noir, who slaughters the trolls, was created in the kids' session. lord english, who is the 8igger and 8adder reflection of noir, slaughters the horrorterrors, and was created in the trolls' session. (this might make one wonder if a few rogue horrorterrors were responsible for lord english's creation, and/or if this escalating cycle of destruction goes any higher)

an only tangentially related thought experiment: if the horrorterrors WERE all in their god tiers, would their deaths be heroic, or just? if they were just, it would imply they're evil: if they were heroic, it would imply they're good. but even with the assistance of a magic cueball rose doesn't seem to be able to figure this out - and worth noting is that the clock that decides the fate of dead god tiers seemingly incorporates the very same cueball oracle that rose asks the question with. so how could lord english be killing them? he could, of course, be using his rainbow lasers that surpass most forms of immortality: but the dead or dying horrorterrors we see are cut into bloody chunks, not disintegrated. just food for thought!

Why do the Rings of Life and Void exist? Like, I've gathered that they're basically the unprototyped Queens' Rings, what I'm wondering is why they have the powers they do, what benefit is it to Sburb to give them these abilities?

the simple answer is: the same reason void sessions are filled with skeletons, rather than monsters made of crude minerals. each kind of session has its own attributes designed to test players in their own ways. the black queen being able to turn in/visible/tangible would supply additional challenge to discourage players from getting anywhere in that kind of session. assuming the life and void rings are the same ring as the comic implies, the black queen having the ability to come back to life would also be consistent with skeleton underlings being able to reassemble themselves after being killed.

to read into it further: the void ring may have actually come from caliborn's session, if its mysterious appearance on his hand during the time of his masterpiece is anything to go by. and as we all know, caliborn's session is strange in all kinds of ways that don't necessarily make sense when compared to a normal session.

to read into it even FURTHER: though aranea says one of the rings did ONCE belong to the queen of "a" void session, she claims the other one's origins to be much more mysterious. it's entirely within the realms of possibility that the ring/s are not products of a sburb session at all, but are rather jujus, which simply have strange and unexplained powers by nature, that came to be in the possession of a black queen in a void session at some point in time.

Also, why does Sburb even have Sprites^2 as a mechanic intrinsic to itself, why are they a thing that can happen and why would Sburb give them additional abilities and awareness on top of regular sprites?

it's less that sprites^2 are a mechanic intrinsic to themselves, and more that they're a consequence of how sprites are designed to work on their own. in computer programming terms, an instance like this where the properties of two entities intended to operate individually creates an entirely new property is called "emergence".

in this case a new property is emerging from the sprite's function as a manifestation of data. a sprite essentially breaks objects down into the platonic "concept" that the object represents. this kind of goes stealth in the comic, but andrew makes it more explicit in his book commentary:

The concept of prototyping in [SBURB] was always about distilling the prototyped elements into something more symbolic, more essential, and customizing the whole game according to the merged ideals of those components. Just a bit more of this Platonic nonsense that kind of goes unspoken, that is up until these books, when I had to go and totally de-unspeak it like a friggin’ loudmouth.

so when a sprite, whose existence is as a "concept," is prototyped by another sprite, it essentially becomes a "concept of a concept". in homestuck's case, a concept of a concept seems to be analogous to the Ultimate Self, which is the culmination of every single possible version of someone; the fundamental "idea" behind all of these iterations. this is why the sprite^2 takes on some visual qualities of a dream self: the dream self is the "idea" of the self that someone has in their head, existing on the border of all timelines.

[thorondraco]

Okay i am both asking a question and making a statement.

Did John alter the, in unvierse, course of homestuck? As in change the story from its original route?

Yes. That's implied in several logs. That being said, Typheus was aware of these powers in a way closely interwoven to his Quest. It may be that he knew all along that's what he had to do, or the exact specifics of the Choice are always flexible, and John's quest was more about cleaning his planet, and the method in which he did so never mattered. This seems like the most likely option, as it has been shown to differ in alternate timelines.

More than likely retcon was someone's plan, but we don't know whose plan. Generally speaking the denizens are probably something major in paradox space, that is why they are so knowledgeable. If they know how reality works they would know how Retcon stuff works too... With the ultimate self stuff i wouldn't be surprised if denizens have an ultimate self who are the masterminds of paradox space. The Powers that Be that Aradia mentions in the pesterquest.
We don't know the entire motivations of the Denizens in general either. But them undrestanding how retcon works isn't implausible... Whoemver's plan it was.

Considering retcon destroyed paradox space basically, as it was the only way to Kill lord english, it does not seem like it was the plan all along. On the other hand it depends on if Lord English himself was the intent or an anomaly. If he is the latter i might have been the intent to release the power of Retcon in order to eliminate him. The Reader proves that it is in fact not something that is within their power to control cause he basically is trouncing over all of Canon at this point XD. It was a major risk in that case.

Another possibility is that Retcon is a Horror Terror plan... Which has credibility. Aradia has revealed herself to be against Paradox Space and its current mechanics. Something she only reveals in the pesterquest and where "They can't hear us." Which really repaints her dare to John to touch the Juju in an extremely different light indeed. Basically the Retcon was unleashed in a dream bubble, where the Powers that Be are Deaf and Blind. Aradia herself is suddenly so very, very suspicious.
Pesterquest itself i think is probably a lot more than just a visual novel to make bit of cash and fill up time. The peeps making it suer are treating it differently. Its not like the Reader is in a doomed timeline. Instead he is actually fuckin with reality.

in the end the question that Retcon without question changed the narrative is clear. But the ones behind it coming to John's hands is in question, as well as the motivation of it.

Also i think the story could have gone down without retcon, but it would have ended in defeat against Lord english. Leading up to Game over the empress was maneuvering the kids to create the scenario where they could go after lord english. Or whom she presumed would be lord english i wager. Put the seers together, was prepping Dave. Dave IS the very core of why its plausible to work without retcon. The juju has to be loaded and Caliborn thrown into the furthest ring as lil cal. Dave would be the key to it happening without Retcon cause... He exists. He could have gotten coordinates into the future. That might be what the empress was trying to have the Seers do perhaps, figure out when they needed to appear.
There is no way they could defeat lord english though, not with the green sun. They wee almost defeated by him without the damn thing. And only because of DAvepeta sacrificing themself.

[egg]

Okay, but this is a lore questions and answers thread, sir.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

Oh, so a God is just a thing that's revered, and the God Tiers on Earth C are also gods because they're idolized as such. That makes sense.

[thorondraco]

Here is a random one. Does gamzee have conditional mortality?
if i remember right conditional mortality is an inverse of conditional immortality. Basically someone is forced to live until they accomplish a goal.

[musicalEmpathist]

Question:

In terms of SBURB, what exactly is the point of the warp gates? I know the last one takes you to your denizen (which is important), but what is the point of travelling to each other's planets when, typically, one's quest doesn't seem to expand outside of their Land? Do quests transcend planets, requiring players to travel between them? Or is there some other reason?

[BrobyDDark]

Question:

In terms of SBURB, what exactly is the point of the warp gates? I know the last one takes you to your denizen (which is important), but what is the point of travelling to each other's planets when, typically, one's quest doesn't seem to expand outside of their Land? Do quests transcend planets, requiring players to travel between them? Or is there some other reason?

The Time and Space Players need a way to get to eachother, and two people can, presumably, work on the same quest at the same time.

Also, eventually the entire group needs to meet up, either to facilitate Mass Godhood, or to fight the Derse Army.

[harmoniousCalamity]

Okay so. You know how when the trolls beat their game, and they were going to enter their door, and their door was consistently purple that entire time.

Why is it, when the kids left, their door changed and flipped and became white? To me it gave the implication that they're not exiting the game but rather just re-entering the game from a different point?

[luigi]

Okay so. You know how when the trolls beat their game, and they were going to enter their door, and their door was consistently purple that entire time.

Why is it, when the kids left, their door changed and flipped and became white? To me it gave the implication that they're not exiting the game but rather just re-entering the game from a different point?

We will never know.