Classpect discussion

[egg]

I do think that making your own theories does at least put you on a level above the vast majority of the Classpect fandom, which is mostly "hey what classpect am I? haha isn't this WACKY???"

[thorondraco]

Obviously the solution is to befriend Doc Scratch in Pesterquest.

I jsut realized something. He snaps your fingers and you suddenly aer out of friendmode and he claims you were under his control... But after recovering your memories, and generally the pesterquest sutff beforehand, was you in friendmode.

What if his desire to making friends is actually a part of his true personality? Either initially or, perhaps, became a part of him?

slowly the reader evolves.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

(Aside: As for evidence towards whether the real Dirk can rip souls out of bodies, he probably would have done that in the Epilogues when Jade was possessed by the spirit of the dead Cherub. Rather than having to resort to weird mind-game trickery with tranquilizer guns, ya dig? It just sounds so much easier.

That's a thief. That's a thief thing. Thieves will take your luck, your soul, your wallet (ok that one's a joke, but still), your means of reproduction. They have no respect for anything and are willing to play quick and dirty. And, because I'm not a thief, I respect that.

Sorry, I'm still really spiteful about the whole Dirk discourse thing, and I feel the need to defend this point in case Joyfulldreams ever sees this thread again.)

I do think that making your own theories does at least put you on a level above the vast majority of the Classpect fandom, which is mostly "hey what classpect am I? haha isn't this WACKY???"

Well, it is pretend nonsense. It takes all types.

Oh, the way I got my Class isn't from a test. I was in some Discord (I don't know, maybe farragofiction?) and I asked what class I was. (As you do) The person administering the test gave me Mage because I asked too many questions about the test questions, and now I see the logic behind that. It was great. I stuck it back on after the wankery I was up to in this thread.

Honestly not too sure if the aspect I got is too accurate. Right off the bat, the first question doesn't make sense to me.

"Think about your life as if it's a story, and you're the main protagonist. Do you tend to view yourself as lone hero, who along the way meets other supporting characters, who only have a tangential relation to your personal journey? Or do you view yourself as just one hero in an ever-shifting ensemble of important protagonists?"

I don't know. For the latter, does that mean I was once a protagonist and then I fell off? Why is everything shifting? Can't things just stay in place? A lot of important people who are in my life are gone from it, and not because they died.

See what I mean about asking too many questions? I'm just confused like a fox about it all.

SOLLUX: i'm s0 sick 0f telling this st0ry t0 pe0ple 0ver and 0ver, and n0b0dy understanding what the hell i'm talking ab0ut.
SOLLUX: it's all s0 simple. n0, actually, it isn't, it's a fucking stupid st0ry that makes n0 sense, maybe that's the pr0blem.
SOLLUX: my marginal existence is fraught with s0 much p0intless duality and c0mplicated n0nsense, s0 i'm d0ne even trying t0 explain it.

Yeah. I can relate to not understanding how Sollux can be half-dead.

My main issue with my own theory is that I'm going to have a lot of trouble figuring out the other four pairs of classes and what those have in common. Well, three? Thief and Rogue are still a given. But what the fuck is with Pages? What kind of fuckin' verb is "potential"? What does it fucking mean. I know people pair Page and Knight together but the two classes seem to have nothing to do with each other so what the fuck.

[egg]

My main issue with my own theory is that I'm going to have a lot of trouble figuring out the other four pairs of classes and what those have in common. Well, three? Thief and Rogue are still a given. But what the fuck is with Pages? What kind of fuckin' verb is "potential"? What does it fucking mean. I know people pair Page and Knight together but the two classes seem to have nothing to do with each other so what the fuck.

People pair Page and Knight together due to process of elimination (all the other classes fit in snugly with other pairings), as well as the fact that the Page outfit is literally based on Robin's classic era outfit, who is a sidekick to the Dark Knight. It's a stretch, but so is many other things.
The Page verb isn't known. There have been many varieties, the three most popular ones being "exploit", "inspire" (what I subscribe to, but doesn't really apply neatly to Knight, so I use the former) and "serve". We don't really know what Pages really do either. We know that they're a Class that is known to be very socially inept, starts slow, has a long hard and rocky path ahead of it, and attains a lot of power at the end of said path. But other than that, there's not much else. Jake was never properly realized, Aranea just gave him the powers a realized Page of Hope would have. Tavros died before he could do much, though he did do very well in assembling the ghost army, and Horuss is, like many of the dancestors, a literal who. I do have theories of course, but I'll refrain from stating them - Page's a pretty easy way to start an argument.

[csj]

Pagers are a thing and thanks to them, page is literally a verb as a well as a noun.

[Dream Muttman]

For a lot of classes there's a verb inherent to their title word. Witches witch, Knights knight, Bards bard (horses?), Thieves thieve and Seers see. Pages can also 'page for' which is to be a page for someone else.

The problem with these is Prince and Bard's exposition, which makes it so half our known verbs are completely unrelated to the title word and can't be predicted from it. Prince and Bard being tied to destruction is what made people start classpecting based on character evidence rather than semantic logic.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

People pair Page and Knight together due to process of elimination (all the other classes fit in snugly with other pairings), as well as the fact that the Page outfit is literally based on Robin's classic era outfit, who is a sidekick to the Dark Knight. It's a stretch, but so is many other things.
The Page verb isn't known. There have been many varieties, the three most popular ones being "exploit", "inspire" (what I subscribe to, but doesn't really apply neatly to Knight, so I use the former) and "serve". We don't really know what Pages really do either. We know that they're a Class that is known to be very socially inept, starts slow, has a long hard and rocky path ahead of it, and attains a lot of power at the end of said path. But other than that, there's not much else. Jake was never properly realized, Aranea just gave him the powers a realized Page of Hope would have. Tavros died before he could do much, though he did do very well in assembling the ghost army, and Horuss is, like many of the dancestors, a literal who. I do have theories of course, but I'll refrain from stating them - Page's a pretty easy way to start an argument.

Well, I want to argue. I want to get mad online. If it's rehashing the same nonsense that you're sick of, that's reasonable. I hope you can learn to trust me to not be the kind of person to run around in circles out of stubbornness.

The verb isn't exploit. That's really stupid. That's already used to describe whether a class is active or passive, so it would be confusing to use the word in more than one way.

Gosh, I wish most of the classes were connected the way Thief and Rogue are, but Homestuck is a narrative that doesn't care about things like DPS or Tanks or other sensible RPG stuff, so connecting them based on just their names isn't going to work too well. Otherwise, we'd be pairing Mage and Witch because they both sound magical, when it makes more sense to pair Mage and Seer because Sollux and Terezi are both described as prophets.

I've ended up pairing Page with Heir (post with reasoning to follow). I think "to inspire" is the closest verb to the one I plan on using, but I have a particular affinity with the one I plan on using, and, even if you don't agree with it, I think you'll see why.

[egg]

The verb isn't exploit. That's really stupid. That's already used to describe whether a class is active or passive, so it would be confusing to use the word in more than one way.

Check this one out. It explains better than I could.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

(I'll add links later. Maybe.)

pages n heirs

Show

Page (-)/Heir (+)
To Suggest/Command

As opposed to the classes based on knowing things, Pages and Heirs don't persuade with logic or reason (Ok, Gamzee's logic is bullshit, since his title translates to "Guy who warns/threatens with lies," but it's still logic), preferring to just ask. And people usually go with it, because they're nice and nobody wants to disappoint them. Why not follow their advice? What's the worst that could happen?

Pages have a greater focus on being open to suggestion. Sometimes they can come off as gullible or stupid, as if they can't think for themselves. This isn't true. As Brain Ghost Dirk might say, "Don't cry. Your meat is huge and you're sexy as hell."

This is where the potential comes from. Someone will tell them a thing and, if they're receptive to it, the page will repeat it over and over again in their heads and convince themselves.

Tavros thinks robot legs gave him confidence, and although that sounds fake as hell to most people, in Tavros's case, it's actually true. It's the placebo effect, but it's very effective. Jasprosesprite^2 gave Tavros one of her pajama buttons and said it was a pill for Tavros's cat allergies. I don't know if it's because Tavros was never actually allergic, or because Sprites aren't alive and don't have immune systems, but it works.

Pages are actually rather selective about the sort of suggestions they're willing to take, even though they'll end up taking them more or less indiscriminately. This leads to savvy Pages having to manipulate scenarios in order to get the suggestions they actually want to hear.

Jake puts Jane on the spot to ask her if she likes him so that she'd panic and give him the answer he wanted. He needed to get "permission" to pursue Dirk, and he got it. It's an "letter of the law" sort of deal, rather than being based on what other people actually want. A good Page will interpret the commands the way that suits their own needs. You know how Jake made the poll for voting on name ideas for the TV show before Dirk could propose a different idea? He felt like polite suggestions were akin to bossing people around because of his nature as a Page.

Horuss, when Rufioh is about to suggest that they break up, selectively omits the words from his consciousness. He's got sweat in his ears.

They can also give commands. Tavros's psychic power is communion, which he uses to command the imps to help him. He convinced a fuckton of ghosts to fight Lord English, and then he flatters Meenah into leading them into battle. He tricked Meenah into doing hard work that he didn't feel like doing by saying some stuff about blood color that he likely doesn't even buy into.

If I'm going to be honest, I have some Page tendencies too, but this is the result of parental abuse, so I don't think it'd be healthy for me to identify with that.

Heirs specialize more in suggesting things to others. Equius is all about giving commands, but he's really uncomfortable with the idea of imposing himself on others.

CT: D --> I apologize
CT: D --> I was completely out of of line, and I'm sorry
CT: D --> I have no right to talk to you like that, or tell you what you can't do
...
CT: D --> Don't you understand that you're better than me
CT: D --> Can you please act like it
CT: D --> That's not a command, it's just a polite request I guess

CT: D --> Maybe I don't want to order you to
CT: D --> Maybe I want
CT: D --> You to do whatever things that you want to do

John also shaped the interests of the other Beta kids in his letters to them. This was elaborated more on in another classpect theory (don't remember which), but the verb was "change," which is much too vague of a verb. Also, what would its counterpart be? I won't accept "to learn" because I already paired "to understand" with "to fear," so what's left? To stagnate? We can't have that.

Equius has a tendency to command others to command him, and that can have interesting consequences. Like John giving himself suggestions from the future to the past through Karkat. As I said in some other thread, John flirted with Karkat only to no homo himself in the end. This lead to Karkat giving John the heteronormative treatment, despite being from a planet that doesn't even have that. Congratulations, idiot, you played yourself!

Pages and Heirs tend to not be consciously aware of the power of their words and their unintended consequences.

TG: oh hell that is such a coincidence i just found an unopened container of apple juice in my closet it is like fucking christmas up in here
EB: ok thats fine, but i just have one question and then a word of caution. have you ever seen a movie called little monsters starring howie mandel and fred savage?
TG: but
TG: the seal on the bottle is unbroken
TG: are you suggesting someone put piss in my apple juice at the factory

Later, when Dave tries to drink the juice, he can't shake the thought from his mind.

When John did that Retcon, he accidentally caused the gay singularity because he added a message that wasn't on Terezi's scarf. It was very cool and very anime.

thieves n rogues

Show

Thief (-)/Rogue (+)
To Steal/Copy

The logic behind grouping the quartet in this manner is the dichotomy between "Do as I say" and "Do as I do." Thieves and Rogues take cues from what catches their attention, rather than what they're told. I don't know if I see as many salient connections between these four as I do for the first four that I tried comparing, but I guess the way that Homestuck contrasts the psychic powers of Tavros and Vriska is good enough evidence.

My reasoning for adding copy to the verb pair.


Roxy steals his look. Or is he a copycat? I'd lean towards the latter, since it's not as if he ripped the shirt off of his biological son's back. Oh, and when he was a teen, he also copied cats.

Vriska's power, we learn from Aranea, is that of an empath. The word empath shares a root with empathy, is when you feel how other people feel. It's like copying someone's emotions and making them about yourself. So, if you're wondering how Vriska could be considered an empath if she's such an asshole, I've explained the theming.

Vriska copies Mindfang. She copies Tavros's fairy pin-ups. She makes John copy her fashion sense. (Vriska) copies Tavros's and Meenah's haircuts. This is how she shows admiration for others, and she doesn't understand why other people wouldn't want to be like her.

Nepeta and Equius role-play as each other. Then they die.

The Condesce copies the psychic powers of other trolls. She copies the twelve lusii. She copies Calamity Jane and gives the human girl Jane's name. She does a lot of weird shit in the cursed timeline that I don't want to get into, but there's a lot of cloning.

I don't know a thing about Rufioh. Sorry.

Gamzee also partakes in copying, but that has more to do with how he's all about being fake as shit. A Rage thing.

You could say that Dave munchkining the crocodile stock market is a form of stealing, but he doesn't copy their mannerisms, so he doesn't count. When John kidnaps the baby salamander, he is copying a scene from Con Air, so there's probably something to that.

i am bored of this. guess i'm not putting in a whole-hearted effort into this. wink wonk.

ok, i guess that leaves knight (-)/maid (+) and witch (-)/sylph (+).

GG: what is a sylph?
GA: I Think Its Sort Of Like A Witch
GA: But More Magical

see that's why i put sylphs as the plus sign, even though i have no idea what sort of healing witches are up to.

anyway, egg, i get the concept, but i still think it'd be better to find a synonym.

i remember the shit about shoes, because I was there to suggest it (i changed my url a lot back then but i recall that i was credited as some variation of saddestsad. at one point i was horussebooks and stuck with that for a while.), but later it turned out that the shoes were just kind of random. cronus and eridan both had violet shoes. they can't be based on dream moons since aranea, prospit dreamer, has blue shoes like rose, derse dreamer. maybe it's based on the god tier's preferences? as if vriska's love of red shoes was strong enough to influence her god tier costume, or cronus's and eridan's pride in their sea dweller heritage was enough to modify the default.

all of the beta aspects, save for rose and vriska, seem to match up with their active/passive counterparts in the troll session with my model. i wasn't trying for that. I guess it makes sense if he wants to cut down time thinking about how to characterize the trolls if what he really wants is to write Vriska. still, i'm suspicious of myself.

[thorondraco]

(I'll add links later. Maybe.)

pages n heirs

Show

Page (-)/Heir (+)
To Suggest/Command

As opposed to the classes based on knowing things, Pages and Heirs don't persuade with logic or reason (Ok, Gamzee's logic is bullshit, since his title translates to "Guy who warns/threatens with lies," but it's still logic), preferring to just ask. And people usually go with it, because they're nice and nobody wants to disappoint them. Why not follow their advice? What's the worst that could happen?

Pages have a greater focus on being open to suggestion. Sometimes they can come off as gullible or stupid, as if they can't think for themselves. This isn't true. As Brain Ghost Dirk might say, "Don't cry. Your meat is huge and you're sexy as hell."

This is where the potential comes from. Someone will tell them a thing and, if they're receptive to it, the page will repeat it over and over again in their heads and convince themselves.

Tavros thinks robot legs gave him confidence, and although that sounds fake as hell to most people, in Tavros's case, it's actually true. It's the placebo effect, but it's very effective. Jasprosesprite^2 gave Tavros one of her pajama buttons and said it was a pill for Tavros's cat allergies. I don't know if it's because Tavros was never actually allergic, or because Sprites aren't alive and don't have immune systems, but it works.

Pages are actually rather selective about the sort of suggestions they're willing to take, even though they'll end up taking them more or less indiscriminately. This leads to savvy Pages having to manipulate scenarios in order to get the suggestions they actually want to hear.

Jake puts Jane on the spot to ask her if she likes him so that she'd panic and give him the answer he wanted. He needed to get "permission" to pursue Dirk, and he got it. It's an "letter of the law" sort of deal, rather than being based on what other people actually want. A good Page will interpret the commands the way that suits their own needs. You know how Jake made the poll for voting on name ideas for the TV show before Dirk could propose a different idea? He felt like polite suggestions were akin to bossing people around because of his nature as a Page.

Horuss, when Rufioh is about to suggest that they break up, selectively omits the words from his consciousness. He's got sweat in his ears.

They can also give commands. Tavros's psychic power is communion, which he uses to command the imps to help him. He convinced a fuckton of ghosts to fight Lord English, and then he flatters Meenah into leading them into battle. He tricked Meenah into doing hard work that he didn't feel like doing by saying some stuff about blood color that he likely doesn't even buy into.

If I'm going to be honest, I have some Page tendencies too, but this is the result of parental abuse, so I don't think it'd be healthy for me to identify with that.

Heirs specialize more in suggesting things to others. Equius is all about giving commands, but he's really uncomfortable with the idea of imposing himself on others.

CT: D --> I apologize
CT: D --> I was completely out of of line, and I'm sorry
CT: D --> I have no right to talk to you like that, or tell you what you can't do
...
CT: D --> Don't you understand that you're better than me
CT: D --> Can you please act like it
CT: D --> That's not a command, it's just a polite request I guess

CT: D --> Maybe I don't want to order you to
CT: D --> Maybe I want
CT: D --> You to do whatever things that you want to do

John also shaped the interests of the other Beta kids in his letters to them. This was elaborated more on in another classpect theory, but the verb was "change," which is much too vague of a verb. Also, what would its counterpart be? I won't accept "to learn" because I already paired "to understand" with "to fear," so what's left? To stagnate?

Equius has a tendency to command others to command him, and that can have interesting consequences. Like John giving himself suggestions from the future to the past through Karkat. As I said in some other thread, John flirted with Karkat only to no homo himself in the end. This lead to Karkat giving John the heteronormative treatment, despite being from a planet that doesn't even have that. Congratulations, idiot, you played yourself!

Pages and Heirs tend to not be consciously aware of the power of their words and their unintended consequences.

TG: oh hell that is such a coincidence i just found an unopened container of apple juice in my closet it is like fucking christmas up in here
EB: ok thats fine, but i just have one question and then a word of caution. have you ever seen a movie called little monsters starring howie mandel and fred savage?
TG: but
TG: the seal on the bottle is unbroken
TG: are you suggesting someone put piss in my apple juice at the factory

Later, when Dave tries to drink the juice, he can't shake the thought from his mind.

When John did that Retcon, he accidentally caused the gay singularity because he added a message that wasn't on Terezi's scarf. It was very cool and very anime.

thieves n rogues

Show

Thief (-)/Rogue (+)
To Steal/Copy

The logic behind grouping the quartet in this manner is the dichotomy between "Do as I say" and "Do as I do." Thieves and Rogues take cues from what catches their attention, rather than what they're told. I don't know if I see as many salient connections between these four as I do for the first four that I tried comparing, but I guess the way that Homestuck contrasts the psychic powers of Tavros and Vriska is good enough evidence.

My reasoning for adding copy to the verb pair.


Roxy steals his look. Or is he a copycat? I'd lean towards the latter, since it's not as if he ripped the shirt off of his biological son's back. Oh, and when he was a teen, he also copied cats.

Vriska's power, we learn from Aranea, is that of an empath. The word empath shares a root with empathy, is when you feel how other people feel. It's like copying someone's emotions and making them about yourself. So, if you're wondering how Vriska could be considered an empath if she's such an asshole, I've explained the theming.

Vriska copies Mindfang. She copies Tavros's fairy pin-ups. She makes John copy her fashion sense. (Vriska) copies Tavros's and Meenah's haircuts. This is how she shows admiration for others, and she doesn't understand why other people wouldn't want to be like her.

Nepeta and Equius role-play as each other. Then they die.

The Condesce copies the psychic powers of other trolls. She copies the twelve lusii. She copies Calamity Jane and gives the human girl Jane's name. She does a lot of weird shit in the cursed timeline that I don't want to get into, but there's a lot of cloning.

I don't know a thing about Rufioh. Sorry.

Gamzee also partakes in copying, but that has more to do with how he's all about being fake as shit. A Rage thing.

You could say that Dave munchkining the crocodile stock market is a form of stealing, but he doesn't copy their mannerisms, so he doesn't count. When John kidnaps the baby salamander, he is copying a scene from Con Air, so there's probably something to that.

i am bored of this. guess i'm not putting in a whole-hearted effort into this. wink wonk.

ok, i guess that leaves knight (-)/maid (+) and witch (-)/sylph (+).

GG: what is a sylph?
GA: I Think Its Sort Of Like A Witch
GA: But More Magical

see that's why i put sylphs as the plus sign, even though i have no idea what sort of healing witches are up to.

anyway, egg, i get the concept, but i still think it'd be better to find a synonym.

i remember the shit about shoes, because I was there to suggest it (i changed my url a lot back then but i recall that i was credited as some variation of saddestsad. at one point i was horussebooks and stuck with that for a while.), but later it turned out that the shoes were just kind of random. cronus and eridan both had violet shoes. they can't be based on dream moons since aranea, prospit dreamer, has blue shoes like rose, derse dreamer. maybe it's based on the god tier's preferences? as if vriska's love of red shoes was strong enough to influence her god tier costume, or cronus's and eridan's pride in their sea dweller heritage was enough to modify the default.

Sylphs are apparently the white magic version of the Witch, which is dark magic. Support vs combat. Though the lines can be blurred. I feel as if almost every single individual we see has their power vastly limited in one way or another. That they are denied a full and complete understanding of their powers or are artificially limited by the nature of Paradox space. Especiailly as if they do the wrong thing they create a doomed timeline.
In some ways character a totally forbidden from truly accessing their true power for the sake of the Narrative. For example Kanaya. She not only hasn't god tiered but she is very much not connected to her class as a Sylph. She has no idea how to use her space powers either. And honestly you can see why because she would be Sylph of Space, one who could heal physical injuries quite easily. If she had god tiered, she could have revived if not healed most of everyone who died on the meteor. She could have closed the space in Feferi's wound and brought her back to life. She could have put poor Nepeta's broken body back into shape. I think that only Equius would be outside of her power to heal, as his death was through asphyxiation and not from physical injury.

Its likely the classes are capable of vastly more than is ever shown because they are so constrained by paradox space. It controls them via ignorance, denial, and punishment should they figure out a trick they aren't supposed to use. IT be like if a Dungeon Master rock falls the entire party cause one of the guys were clever enough to bypass a puzzle or one shot the final boss. Or pics an ability that makes a character that is meant to die too strong ot realistically die,cause the Dm wants to kill off one of the players characters for drama.

Sburb and Skaia look so much more sinister when you look at it from that light. Though at the same time the powers these individuals have are potent without them gaining power of the Meta aspects of their abilities, like Dirk has.

[thorondraco]

(I'll add links later. Maybe.)

pages n heirs

Show

Page (-)/Heir (+)
To Suggest/Command

As opposed to the classes based on knowing things, Pages and Heirs don't persuade with logic or reason (Ok, Gamzee's logic is bullshit, since his title translates to "Guy who warns/threatens with lies," but it's still logic), preferring to just ask. And people usually go with it, because they're nice and nobody wants to disappoint them. Why not follow their advice? What's the worst that could happen?

Pages have a greater focus on being open to suggestion. Sometimes they can come off as gullible or stupid, as if they can't think for themselves. This isn't true. As Brain Ghost Dirk might say, "Don't cry. Your meat is huge and you're sexy as hell."

This is where the potential comes from. Someone will tell them a thing and, if they're receptive to it, the page will repeat it over and over again in their heads and convince themselves.

Tavros thinks robot legs gave him confidence, and although that sounds fake as hell to most people, in Tavros's case, it's actually true. It's the placebo effect, but it's very effective. Jasprosesprite^2 gave Tavros one of her pajama buttons and said it was a pill for Tavros's cat allergies. I don't know if it's because Tavros was never actually allergic, or because Sprites aren't alive and don't have immune systems, but it works.

Pages are actually rather selective about the sort of suggestions they're willing to take, even though they'll end up taking them more or less indiscriminately. This leads to savvy Pages having to manipulate scenarios in order to get the suggestions they actually want to hear.

Jake puts Jane on the spot to ask her if she likes him so that she'd panic and give him the answer he wanted. He needed to get "permission" to pursue Dirk, and he got it. It's an "letter of the law" sort of deal, rather than being based on what other people actually want. A good Page will interpret the commands the way that suits their own needs. You know how Jake made the poll for voting on name ideas for the TV show before Dirk could propose a different idea? He felt like polite suggestions were akin to bossing people around because of his nature as a Page.

Horuss, when Rufioh is about to suggest that they break up, selectively omits the words from his consciousness. He's got sweat in his ears.

They can also give commands. Tavros's psychic power is communion, which he uses to command the imps to help him. He convinced a fuckton of ghosts to fight Lord English, and then he flatters Meenah into leading them into battle. He tricked Meenah into doing hard work that he didn't feel like doing by saying some stuff about blood color that he likely doesn't even buy into.

If I'm going to be honest, I have some Page tendencies too, but this is the result of parental abuse, so I don't think it'd be healthy for me to identify with that.

Heirs specialize more in suggesting things to others. Equius is all about giving commands, but he's really uncomfortable with the idea of imposing himself on others.

CT: D --> I apologize
CT: D --> I was completely out of of line, and I'm sorry
CT: D --> I have no right to talk to you like that, or tell you what you can't do
...
CT: D --> Don't you understand that you're better than me
CT: D --> Can you please act like it
CT: D --> That's not a command, it's just a polite request I guess

CT: D --> Maybe I don't want to order you to
CT: D --> Maybe I want
CT: D --> You to do whatever things that you want to do

John also shaped the interests of the other Beta kids in his letters to them. This was elaborated more on in another classpect theory (don't remember which), but the verb was "change," which is much too vague of a verb. Also, what would its counterpart be? I won't accept "to learn" because I already paired "to understand" with "to fear," so what's left? To stagnate? We can't have that.

Equius has a tendency to command others to command him, and that can have interesting consequences. Like John giving himself suggestions from the future to the past through Karkat. As I said in some other thread, John flirted with Karkat only to no homo himself in the end. This lead to Karkat giving John the heteronormative treatment, despite being from a planet that doesn't even have that. Congratulations, idiot, you played yourself!

Pages and Heirs tend to not be consciously aware of the power of their words and their unintended consequences.

TG: oh hell that is such a coincidence i just found an unopened container of apple juice in my closet it is like fucking christmas up in here
EB: ok thats fine, but i just have one question and then a word of caution. have you ever seen a movie called little monsters starring howie mandel and fred savage?
TG: but
TG: the seal on the bottle is unbroken
TG: are you suggesting someone put piss in my apple juice at the factory

Later, when Dave tries to drink the juice, he can't shake the thought from his mind.

When John did that Retcon, he accidentally caused the gay singularity because he added a message that wasn't on Terezi's scarf. It was very cool and very anime.

thieves n rogues

Show

Thief (-)/Rogue (+)
To Steal/Copy

The logic behind grouping the quartet in this manner is the dichotomy between "Do as I say" and "Do as I do." Thieves and Rogues take cues from what catches their attention, rather than what they're told. I don't know if I see as many salient connections between these four as I do for the first four that I tried comparing, but I guess the way that Homestuck contrasts the psychic powers of Tavros and Vriska is good enough evidence.

My reasoning for adding copy to the verb pair.


Roxy steals his look. Or is he a copycat? I'd lean towards the latter, since it's not as if he ripped the shirt off of his biological son's back. Oh, and when he was a teen, he also copied cats.

Vriska's power, we learn from Aranea, is that of an empath. The word empath shares a root with empathy, is when you feel how other people feel. It's like copying someone's emotions and making them about yourself. So, if you're wondering how Vriska could be considered an empath if she's such an asshole, I've explained the theming.

Vriska copies Mindfang. She copies Tavros's fairy pin-ups. She makes John copy her fashion sense. (Vriska) copies Tavros's and Meenah's haircuts. This is how she shows admiration for others, and she doesn't understand why other people wouldn't want to be like her.

Nepeta and Equius role-play as each other. Then they die.

The Condesce copies the psychic powers of other trolls. She copies the twelve lusii. She copies Calamity Jane and gives the human girl Jane's name. She does a lot of weird shit in the cursed timeline that I don't want to get into, but there's a lot of cloning.

I don't know a thing about Rufioh. Sorry.

Gamzee also partakes in copying, but that has more to do with how he's all about being fake as shit. A Rage thing.

You could say that Dave munchkining the crocodile stock market is a form of stealing, but he doesn't copy their mannerisms, so he doesn't count. When John kidnaps the baby salamander, he is copying a scene from Con Air, so there's probably something to that.

i am bored of this. guess i'm not putting in a whole-hearted effort into this. wink wonk.

ok, i guess that leaves knight (-)/maid (+) and witch (-)/sylph (+).

GG: what is a sylph?
GA: I Think Its Sort Of Like A Witch
GA: But More Magical

see that's why i put sylphs as the plus sign, even though i have no idea what sort of healing witches are up to.

anyway, egg, i get the concept, but i still think it'd be better to find a synonym.

i remember the shit about shoes, because I was there to suggest it (i changed my url a lot back then but i recall that i was credited as some variation of saddestsad. at one point i was horussebooks and stuck with that for a while.), but later it turned out that the shoes were just kind of random. cronus and eridan both had violet shoes. they can't be based on dream moons since aranea, prospit dreamer, has blue shoes like rose, derse dreamer. maybe it's based on the god tier's preferences? as if vriska's love of red shoes was strong enough to influence her god tier costume, or cronus's and eridan's pride in their sea dweller heritage was enough to modify the default.

all of the beta aspects, save for rose and vriska, seem to match up with their active/passive counterparts in the troll session with my model. i wasn't trying for that. I guess it makes sense if he wants to cut down time thinking about how to characterize the trolls if what he really wants is to write Vriska. still, i'm suspicious of myself.

A good example is honestly Dirk. Because he found out a way to use his Prince powers as a means of control. He can use them to deconstruct someone, figure out who they are, how they think. He can then use them to chip at them, reshape them, even break them if he has to. An artist traditional is destroying something to make it take on another form. You destroy trees to make the papper to draw on, you reduce the paint and or pencil dull and sharpen it so it can draw and write again. With statues, you destroy a piece of stone until it takes on the shape you so desire. Even when something is utterly savaged to pieces, those pieces will eventually break down and become something new. A body breaks down into nourishment that is consumed by plants. Stone breaks down and becomes soil. And could become stone one again by compression.

Rather than using it to tear souls out of bodies or destroying with the power of soul energy, he has learned to reshape things, and learned how to do this on the Meta level.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

A good example of what, exactly? You quoted the whole post so I have no idea which part you're talking about. Thank goodness I put most of it in spoilers.

[thorondraco]

A good example of what, exactly? You quoted the whole post so I have no idea which part you're talking about. Thank goodness I put most of it in spoilers.

err sorry i was going off of my prior comment there cause i thought it would have been too damn long on its own.

Example of someone who wields their classpects beyond the limitations of what is seemingly provided. Dirk has learned how to Create through Destruction basically. To alter without breaking it. Kinda like making a stone a statue. Be breaks someone down to their components and can narrate them into a different state.

He turned Jane into a hitler or hitler too be. He made jake obsessed with him. He turned Kanaya's self doubts against her and used her to make Rose more comfortable with being off planet and going to that Sburb world. You could say he Destroyed the epilogue and ending of homestuck so he could Create a new story where all the old characters can still be involved.

[Alt-Universe Wash]

ok, i guess that leaves knight (-)/maid (+) and witch (-)/sylph (+).

GG: what is a sylph?
GA: I Think Its Sort Of Like A Witch
GA: But More Magical

see that's why i put sylphs as the plus sign, even though i have no idea what sort of healing witches are up to.

I was curious, as one myself, what a Sylph of Space's theoretical god-tier powers would be. Since it's supposedly aligned with healing in general - that struck me as being to use the aspect to repair/heal things, along with the general control over the aspect that all god-tier classes seem to get in general.

My thought was that a Sylph of Space would be healing through manipulation of space directly - so I suppose things like re-arranging things at a molecular or atomic level to bring them back to a desired state of health or wholeness. Fixing objects and healing people (by closing wounds directly and repairing physical structure, not via using bring-back-to-life type abilities) was what I kinda landed on there.

Brings up some larger questions of what a Sylph of other aspects would do. It's not super well documented and Kanaya never got to god tier so no specifics on what that might entail, unless I'm forgetting or missing something.

[Dream Muttman]

I'm fairly certain Kanaya has no clue what a Sylph is supposed to be.

[Alt-Universe Wash]

I'm fairly certain Kanaya has no clue what a Sylph is supposed to be.

Yeah, I think you're probably right about that.

[thorondraco]

I'm fairly certain Kanaya has no clue what a Sylph is supposed to be.

And for the 'story' to work, she had to remain ignorant.
I have a feeling that her powers would probably involve a needle and thread. Cause fashionista and it would link her further with Rose.

Paradox space definitely limits the players rather than letting them grow fully.

Also here ia question. If someone caused Kanaya to gain access to her ultimate self stuff, would she immediately god tier? Because there are versions of her who have god tiered already.

[egg]

Wow, this brings me back to 2012 classpect. Which one of you is gonna kin BKEW?

[RoyalFiddle]

Wow, this brings me back to 2012 classpect. Which one of you is gonna kin BKEW?

Something something BKEW is already blah blah blah

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

dead end theorizing inside

Show

Well, a hint's a hint, and I guess I'm just taking what I can get. I don't think Knight and Witch would be passive/active versions of each other, because that would be too redundant for a four player session, so I'm going to have a 50/50 chance of being able to come up with something that I'm satisfied with.

Jade... makes planets shrink and grow. I don't think I can generalize from that alone.

God Tier Feferi in the dreambubbles could heal the mayor from near death, but she can't bring anyone back from the dead. Jane can revive herself and others if the god tier clock doesn't work, but only once. Not sure what that's about.

This is why I'd rather focus on, idk, catchphrases? circumstantial simultaneity? parallels and such.

Mmm, maybe pairing Knight and Sylph would work better. Neither of them know how to shut the fuck up. Mindfang's journal sure is wordy. It's not long, but it does ramble. Plus, Dave can use a time thing to make his sword repair itself.

Maids feel really active. I was thinking of Dave competing with Jane for the presidency, and they both want it for their own selfish purposes (Taz distinguishes active and passive with selfish/selfless), so I think that was a dead end from the start.

This shit is tough. Damn.

@egg I was thinking about bringing romspec back for Homestuck^2, but considering the slow pace of updates, it's likely that all that could come of it would be boredom. My biggest inspiration for how I speculate comes from tumblr user mmmmalo, who has moved beyond classpect and focuses on other sorts of symbolism. I'm not really sure where to start with it, because "Psychological Storytelling," the introduction of Malo's model, has a bunch of different concepts that build on to each other. I guess it's kind of like that? Chaining up associations until you get something that looks like it can be applied universally. Those who are queasy when it comes to the spelling out of sex jokes probably shouldn't look at it.

I came up with the Persuasive quadrant when I looked at the page where Gamzee claims to have given the Beta kids their psychological problems, and I connected that to Rose seeking out psychological issues in her friends so she can practice her Freudian psychology. And, idk, it seemed intuitive from there.

There's parallels between Dirk and Gamzee as well. When we first see Brobot, it's when he's about to decapitate the sea goat lusus. Decapitation used to be Gamzee's thing before it became Dirk's thing. Rose, Gamzee, Eridan, and Dirk share a fear of the water, and water is associated with the unknowable horrorterrors. Lots of stuff that's only tangentially related to the classpect thing. So, in a way, I ended up working backwards. I found a bunch of evidence to support my claim, and then figured out what it was that I was claiming. I don't remember what bkew used for evidence why, despite it not being hinted at through how they interacted with each other, Dirk and Gamzee was going to be a ship. I guess his predictions bore fruit in the epilogues? Just not how he expected them to.