A proposition for the state of Homestuck's narrative (or how Skaia is to blame for it all)

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

Forget all that, I'm ready for StevieQuest2020

[burnt2ashleys]

I meant to talk about the barrenness as a neglected aspect of the setting to be explored. Exploring the setting will help inform our understandings of the characters, and vice versa.

Ah, but loop around back to my point, we shall, for the setting being barren does not inform us about the characters in the slightest. And here, we depart, for you use a Watsonian approach as opposed to my Doylist, and I call upon the fact that Homestuck was built upon with only a loose skeleton, lots of sprites, and reader interaction, and as such, detailed analysis like this are not 100% reliable, and the same goes for asking Andrew about such changes now.

Malo's is a good theory, although it is one I've not had the time to peruse, but, again, consider this from the perspective of a creator. Would you have taken the time to develop the setting of your story if you had to update multiple times a day for about 2 years? This appeal is a stretch and a reach, I know (what with Andrew's ludicrous schedule and what not), but under this perspective, one can posit, rather simply, that Andrew simply didn't put much thought into the worldbuilding of Homestuck, because it held structurally sound enough for it to progress under the method he employed to create it.

However, as I have written before here, minute details like Skaia's role as an omniscient entity that controls the whole of the system that the narrative is based upon to thrive stacked up over time, and this damages the way one perceives the story, leading it into the aforementioned Candy Rot, which, I shall reiterate, affects even the creative team.

And, again, I'll reiterate: This is a theory of why people feel disenfranchised towards Homestuck, based upon observations of the narrative, how Andrew crafted the story as well as how it developed organically through its lifetime, and 2 years worth of my research upon all of these topics and the fandom up until recent developments. This isn't strictly a Watsonian analysis, there were extrinsic, real life factors which contributed to the current predicament of the story, as well as its fandom and its creative team, whose solution I have already devised and went through in earlier posts.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

I call upon the fact that Homestuck was built upon with only a loose skeleton, lots of sprites, and reader interaction, and as such, detailed analysis like this are not 100% reliable, and the same goes for asking Andrew about such changes now.

Directly accepting reader commands ended before Act 5, I think? And then it opened again, but only to accept troll names. I guess he took input from the fandom. No more than any other story with an online following, but on a quicker timescale than it would have if it were a television show.

I'm not the kind of Watsonian who says that it makes sense for troll women to have boobs because those are their venom sacs. I'm perfectly fine with the Doylist explanation, which is that, despite all their funny alien words, they're people and not monsters. "Humanoid characters are easier to relate to" is a Doylist explanation, right?

I wonder what point there is in distinguishing between Watsonian and Doylist interpretations in something as meta as Homestuck, where the issues with the Homestuck Kickstarter (a major cause of delays and disillusionment) are directly mentioned. You talk about how Homestuck is a sprite comic, as if that makes it low effort? And I don't think that's something to complain about. You could, but you'd miss out on gags like this. I don't need to tell you that Hussie is actually a genius that intended for us to fixate on minutae like this. I only need to say that I don't think the things you are pointing out detract from the story and that it adds to the themes. Conversely, you could say he knew the limitations of the medium and made sure to build the story around that.

All mediums have limitations. If Homestuck had been done entirely in flash like Hussie had planned, would that have added anything? I don't know, but Hussie decided that the extra effort required for doing so was much more than what the payoff would be. This is a good thing.

TT: You say you don't lie, but what about lies of omission?
Lies of omission do not exist.
The concept is a very human one. It is the product of your story writing again. You have written a story about the truth, making emotional demands of it, and in particular, of those in possession of it.
Your demands are based on a feeling of entitlement to the facts, which is very childish. You can never know all of the facts. Only I can.
And since it's impossible for me to reveal all facts to you, it is my discretion alone that decides which facts will be revealed in the finite time we have.
If I do not volunteer information you deem critical to your fate, it possibly means that I am a scoundrel, but it does not mean that I am a liar. And it certainly means you did not ask the right questions.
One can make either true statements or false statements about reality. All of the statements I make are true.
TT: Unless you're joking.
Yes.
TT: Haa haa, hee hee, hoo hoo?
Exactly.

But it's not you that is asking the wrong questions. You're talking about the other writers and how they're prioritizing the wrong things, asking the wrong questions. And I don't think there's anything you can do about that. I also don't know why you'd want to make them ask those questions when you could simply tell people what's being neglected. "Focus on this." Okay, what about it? "If you focus hard enough, it'll be obvious." No, it's not.

I'm not sure how Skaia damages the story if Skaia is the story? I mean, not literally, but I'm wondering how the downplaying of Skaia's influence is bad if you think Skaia is bad for the story. What kind of Homestuck doesn't have predestination in it? What kind of Homestuck doesn't have characters trying to defy it? Stuff like that has been going on way before John did the Retcon. The punchline of John successfully averting Vriska's death is that doing so is essential for Caliborn to predominate. Pre-retcon, Gamzee was chainsawed in half. In such a state, he wouldn't be getting his hands on that cherub egg and exposing them to troll and human cultures. It's not new overly meta bullshit. It's more of the same bullshit, more nonsense about this being part of the plan.

Happy new year.

[burnt2ashleys]

I'll answer to this last reply on a point-by-point analysis, depending on how relevant it is to the thread at hand, apologies for the delay.

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I guess he took input from the fandom. No more than any other story with an online following, but on a quicker timescale than it would have if it were a television show.

And what does this tell us about the nature of the story? That it wasn't pre-planned in earnest. As such, an in-depth analysis of Homestuck must take such past unpredictability into consideration. To illustrate more clearly, an image:

I wonder what point there is in distinguishing between Watsonian and Doylist interpretations in something as meta as Homestuck, where the issues with the Homestuck Kickstarter (a major cause of delays and disillusionment) are directly mentioned. You talk about how Homestuck is a sprite comic, as if that makes it low effort?

Never have I implied such a thing, though! What I meant was that it was a faster approach to the process, not that it was easier! Much of the best art in Homestuck (as made by Andrew, if you'd like to narrow that down) lies in the first 5 acts, for example.

I don't need to tell you that Hussie is actually a genius that intended for us to fixate on minutae like this. I only need to say that I don't think the things you are pointing out detract from the story and that it adds to the themes.

Now, you're losing me here. My point in the last post was: Andrew Hussie stitched the story in a somewhat haphazard manner, using a variety of methods, employing the skills of a variety of people (see https://i.imgur.com/IZUCrKa.png), and he was skilled enough to do so for 2 years, which is quite an accomplishment (and one the whole scene of webcomics hasn't been able to come close to fully).

However, let us be careful here to not defend Andrew or Homestuck unconditionally, for we must approach this comic with a critical look in order to diagnose its current ailments, in the hopes of curing it.

I'm not sure how Skaia damages the story if Skaia is the story? I mean, not literally, but I'm wondering how the downplaying of Skaia's influence is bad if you think Skaia is bad for the story.

You misunderstand. Skaia within the story doesn't do much, and therein lies the problem. You mention how Homestuck is "meta", so let me offer a rebuttal in the same terms: You know that the characters are merely ideas within your head, yes?

Likewise, the story itself exists inside your head, as an idea. This idea exists in a certain way, it's portrayed in a given manner, like how the idea of a dog may make you think of a brown dog, as opposed to a white dog. More specifically, when you think of the tale of Hachiko, you think of a sad story. When you think of the story of some shonen anime, you may think of a happy story.

My theory is that, with Skaia being present, but unadressed by the narrative (which is controlled by the authors), this gives off a different image of Homestuck. However, because the writers themselves are unaware of this fact, and they're the ones in control of paving the story, this creates a feedback loop:

The writers create more Homestuck based on the image of Homestuck that they possess, an image that is fundamentally unsound because of Skaia, the reasons why elaborated on my very first post. And the community, too, is unaware of this, and so the feedback loop continues on, both in "canon" ( ) and in fanfiction. Candy Rot, essentially. Ultimately, Homestuck becomes a bleak story because of the way it is currently structured and perceived (hence "Why Skaia is to blame for it all").

What kind of Homestuck doesn't have predestination in it? What kind of Homestuck doesn't have characters trying to defy it?

Again, you miss the point: I'm not treating Homestuck as immutable here. We must treat it as such, because we have (and always have had) the power to change it, and this includes changing staples of the comic itself, like predestination. In fact, I would go so far as to say that predestination is one of the sources of Candy Rot, for it gives no room for real suspension, stakes and tension.

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I would elaborate on this last sentence, but I feel that I'm pushing the time I ask of all readers here to read my posts, so I'll cut this here, and if you'd like me to elaborate in another post, I'll gladly do so.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression of this dialogue is that you're responding to "This is the significance of this decision," with "They could have made other decisions." Which, of course? Otherwise it wouldn't be a decision. You're acting like stating a tautology is the same as making a point, because the conclusion you've come to is so obvious to you that it might as well be tautological.

You're talking about how I consider Homestuck to be immutable. I don't. I threw away the stuff about Jake Harley being Barack Obama's father because it was weird and also inconsequential as of this post. It looks like I treat it as immutable because I happen to like that a comic that has always been bringing attention to it's artificiality has sequels and spin-offs that keep playing with that idea. I like the idea and I extrapolate it to whatever extreme I please.

You want the characters to seem like real people and not alien game constructs who came from space portals to masquerade as our own kind? Okay. My interpretation is already esoteric, and I'm aware that I'm in the minority. A lot of people can relate to the characters despite how, like typical cartoon characters, larger than life their quirks and behaviors are.

Write your fanfic. I won't read it, but someone's going to like it.

Meanwhile, the point about Skaia never being mentioned has been debunked, and I don't know where your hypothesis has to go from there. I don't even know what it is. I was hoping that someone else would post and explain to me, in their own words, what it is, because there's no reason for me to subject you to even more of my confusion.

[Dream Muttman]

The broader points seems to be that the veil of mystery around things like Skaia was a major part of the comic, but now they seem more like dust covers. The characters used to talk about Skaia. Jade and Kanaya had conversation about it that I distinctly remember, but that fades they never address it again as anything other than a part of the background, like a big magic tree in videogames. It's used to show that the Caliborn/Calliope session is ominous, but its agency in that outcome isn't clarified.

Is it strictly bad that Skaia isn't more present as a force? I don't know. Doylistically, I suspect it's been relegated to the "excuse for plot shit" closet and that it'll never be truly relevant again, despite the fact that with infinite omniscience comes infinite agency. That's kind of tragic in a story about addressing things that don't get addressed.

Homestuck was a fandom experience. Part of what made it feel so momentous were the things the readers made while always waiting for the next update and what it would reveal. Fanventures, AUs (Trollcops even got a songs in an official album), art, music, video games and everything else. Homestuck closed itself as a story without addressing everything in it and that feels like a copout in contrast to that passion.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

https://www.homestuck.com/story/860

All of those blocks in the 8x8 grid there are numbered correctly, which as I recall was fairly painstaking. There are exactly 10,000 tiny squares there (each represents a green power cube), but each block is 12x12, and the vertical/horizontal paths of 4 squares wide are subtracted from the 10K total, so the numbers weren't very even. Oh, also take note of the GPS coordinates which point to a real place in upstate New YoAUGH WHY IS EVERYTHING SO NUMERICALLY METICULOUS, OH MY GOD, ROSE PLEASE JUST DO SOMETHING FUNNY AND DISTRACT ME FROM THIS PEDANTIC NIGHTMARE I HAVE CREATED.

Book commentary I got from the extension.

Hussie put more effort into Homestuck in Act 3 than I'd ever bother doing.