Eridan Ampora

[arachnidsGrip]

Okay, I know I've posted here before bashing Eridan, and I still don't like him much, but I've done some thinking, and I think most of all I see him as wasted potential. I feel like he could have been a lesser Vriska if played right. He could have had real grey morality, he could have done some important things, but he was killed off too soon, and then was never mentioned again, except to bash him for being creepy. I feel like he had a good set up for grey morals. He had a lot of bad views of other people, and he wanted a lot of people dead, but that was a product of the way he was raised. He was filling his role in the caste system the best he could. And he also cared about people genuinely! He was just very bad at showing it. He's shown to care for Feferi, he's shown to consider Karkat one of the closest people to him, and he comes to Kanaya for help in his first appearance, and I'm pretty sure he says he wouldn't kill her either. It's such a shame the way he was handled.

[calamityCons]

Eridan had a lot of potential to grow out of his shittier behavior through interaction with all the other trolls in the game. He was driven by the extremely relatable sensation of loneliness, and as a thirteen year old child trying to process being rejected by someone you thought genuinely liked you is extremely difficult. He did something really horrible, but Erisolsprite’s behavior to Fefetasprite made it clear that Eridan was very regretful and filled with remorse about it. Hell, he didnt even ask for any forgiveness, he just wanted to admit he was wrong and expected literally nothing in return.

[arachnidsGrip]

Eridan had a lot of potential to grow out of his shittier behavior through interaction with all the other trolls in the game. He was driven by the extremely relatable sensation of loneliness, and as a thirteen year old child trying to process being rejected by someone you thought genuinely liked you is extremely difficult. He did something really horrible, but Erisolsprite’s behavior to Fefetasprite made it clear that Eridan was very regretful and filled with remorse about it. Hell, he didnt even ask for any forgiveness, he just wanted to admit he was wrong and expected literally nothing in return.

Yeah! I think ultimately he's a bad person, but he's shown that he tries for what that's worth. He's just... complicated.

[heirofdiscomfort]

Going to be a bit real.

I want to like Eridan.

but like, trying to kill 3 people at once, succeeding at two, and also the matriorb, was very wack, and rather confounding. It seemed like a sudden turn in his character motivation to me when I read it at the time.

I'm reading homestuck in a weird way so I haven't seen this yet but I hear he apologizes as Erisolsprite, that's kinda ok.

(Has anyone here mentioned March Eridan? She makes a canon appearance.)

[calamityCons]

I want to like Eridan.

but like, trying to kill 3 people at once, succeeding at two, and also the matriorb, was very wack, and rather confounding. It seemed like a sudden turn in his character motivation to me when I read it at the time.

That's because, in my opinion, it WAS a sudden turn in his character motivation. I grabbed some screenshots while rereading because I got distracted doing research for my own homestuck fan project (lol) but here's the main gist of what was happening:



When Eridan thinks it might be a good idea to join Jack because it's the only way he can think of to survive in this hopeless situation, Feferi calls him a coward. Feferi has a history with Eridan and she should know by now that saying something like that will only serve to piss him off. But then...




Eridan says that he cares about her. He reiterates in the conversation several times that he wants to be Feferi's friend, which I must admit is what Feferi claimed to also want.



But just a MOMENT ago, Karkat said that Eridan was never visited by anyone at all while on LOWAA, and though Eridan is absolutely still a douche who is bad at listening and on a very obnoxious high horse, he has been trying to tell the people around him that he's lonely and wants some kind of help. He's ultimately a character who is driven by an extremely relatable motivation: loneliness, and a feeling of overwhelming despair. When Feferi says she wants to be Eridan's friend, she's lying. The text constantly TELLS us that Feferi is nice and kind and a good hearted person, but the way she's written and the actions she takes don't match up.

I wrote so much more about this than I expected to if you want to read it

Show

There is also a flipside to this. Eridan could be acting like an asshole on purpose because he has no actual soul and just thinks he's entitled to having a girlfriend. Maybe he's playing up the way he feels to get sympathy, because he's thirsty for attention and wants to be validated even when he knows he's bullshitting. It's a possible motivation for him too. He wants attention, he wants to join the bad guys because he wants to live, and he's willing to throw all of his teammates under the bus if it means he gets what he wants.

He is also thirteen years old, is dealing with the extremely powerful emotions of rejection and loneliness, and also, IN THE ROOM WITH HIM, are two people who explicitly do nice things for him and are willing to speak with him and gently guide him in the right direction. Kanaya and Karkat are both positive influences, even though Karkat is not at all properly equipped to help Eridan manage his emotions better, and Kanaya explicitly says during the flash game that she's being sarcastic when she gives Eridan his wand and shit, so it's pretty backhanded. Basically it's just a big annoying tangle of dramatic teenage bullshit, because Eridan is a theatrical 13 year old kid.

Eridan comes in, scared as shit and desperately trying to find a way out of this mess he's found himself in. He comes up with a desperate and idiotic plan to join Bec Noir and (in a twisted way) wants to save Feferi. In his other possible conversations with Kanaya and Karkat, he thanks the both of them for all their help and even mentions he wants to "be involved" in what Kanaya is doing with the Matriorb. He's about to do something crazy, tells Feferi (and Sollux is there), and it seems a lot like he expects to die in the trying.

(One last note on possible motivations: the pale quadrant is meant to be a quadrant between a violent troll and a pacifying troll that can keep the violent one from going absolute shithive maggots. I remember many interpretations of his actions on the forums in 2011 taking this into account, and thinking "Oh! Eridan is in Stage Mode, he's pretending to be a violent idiot to get Feferi to stop him and trying to become moirails again.")

TL;DR his motivations are complex and he's got a lot of ambiguity, but nowhere in any of his actions up till now indicate he's going to DELIBERATELY make things LESS hopeful through his actions. He's either

1. a desperate thirteen year old grasping at straws for a solution to an impossible problem
2. throwing all the non-seadwellers under the bus and trying to save his own skin + Feferi
3. about to commit a Suicide By Cop with a Sburb Texture Mod on top of it, and hoping Feferi will stop him

So in he goes and he says his piece and then this is what Feferi says:



And then, immediately afterward?



Sollux threatens to murder him.

So I'm honestly completely fucking relieved when Eridan knocked Sollux out after getting attacked with the intent to be killed. I would EXPECT, after all that, Eridan would just run off and get himself killed, but instead he... murders Feferi and destroys the Matriorb for no fucking reason?

See this is why I despise Murderstuck and refuse to give it any respect. Up until now EVERY SINGLE ONE of Eridan's threats were empty and clearly done as an immature and toxic attempt to get attention. That's shitty, for sure, but he never outright MURDERED ANYONE before. But I guess now he just decides to do it because... He has no reason. He has no excuse, no purpose for doing it, and it doesn't even track with any of his possible motivations listed above.

1. This does not solve the problem he was trying to tackle in any way, at all, and was not what he was trying to do in the first place
2. It's irrelevant to his desire to save his own skin, specifically, and leave everyone else under the bus.
3. Extremely off-script for any kind of internal theater he's got going on in his head because instead of being pacified he just had a kismetic duel, so it would be MORE likely he'd just pause and scramble for what to do next

Eridan destroying the Matriorb is pointless, makes no sense, and up until that point Eridan was never depicted as anything more dangerous than "pathetic teenage boy who is bad at listening and has a broken heart." But also he's a troll so I guess crank the violence meter up 5 ticks to compensate for that?

God, Murderstuck is just. It's SUCH hot garbage.

[Leddy]

Eridan destroying the Matriorb is pointless, makes no sense, and up until that point Eridan was never depicted as anything more dangerous than "pathetic teenage boy who is bad at listening and has a broken heart." But also he's a troll so I guess crank the violence meter up 5 ticks to compensate for that?

God, Murderstuck is just. It's SUCH hot garbage.

I disagree that he showed nothing more dangerous than that. He legitimately contemplated letting off of the feeding of Glub Glub to cause literal genocide because it's what he wanted, and didn't mostly because of the fact that it'd ruin his chance at a red relationship with Feferi, practically the one thing he wants more? If that's not dangerous I don't know what is.

Just a small thing I noticed out of what you said.

[calamityCons]

I disagree that he showed nothing more dangerous than that. He legitimately contemplated letting off of the feeding of Glub Glub to cause literal genocide because it's what he wanted, and didn't mostly because of the fact that it'd ruin his chance at a red relationship with Feferi, practically the one thing he wants more? If that's not dangerous I don't know what is.

Just a small thing I noticed out of what you said.

That's a fair observation and a valid interpretation. Eridan definitely isn't a saint, nor is he really that altruistic in motivation or all that capable of thinking about how others feel. I just interpreted it differently, in a "Eridan talks big shit but doesn't actually do it" kind of way. Like a hollow threat made by a jackass on voice chat in a battle royale game. The same hot air that Karkat was blowing, only all the evidence I'd seen was more along the lines of "this is a teenage wannabe supervillain who needs to grow up and stop being such a shithead." I think both our interpretations are valid and neither of them are wrong.

[JakeMorph]

I think both our interpretations are valid and neither of them are wrong.

except the interpretation that eridan would never actually commit genocide is... literally wrong? because he does commit genocide?

[Sahxyel]

So I'm honestly completely fucking relieved when Eridan knocked Sollux out after getting attacked with the intent to be killed. I would EXPECT, after all that, Eridan would just run off and get himself killed, but instead he... murders Feferi and destroys the Matriorb for no fucking reason?

See this is why I despise Murderstuck and refuse to give it any respect. Up until now EVERY SINGLE ONE of Eridan's threats were empty and clearly done as an immature and toxic attempt to get attention. That's shitty, for sure, but he never outright MURDERED ANYONE before. But I guess now he just decides to do it because... He has no reason. He has no excuse, no purpose for doing it, and it doesn't even track with any of his possible motivations listed above.

(...)

Eridan destroying the Matriorb is pointless, makes no sense, and up until that point Eridan was never depicted as anything more dangerous than "pathetic teenage boy who is bad at listening and has a broken heart." But also he's a troll so I guess crank the violence meter up 5 ticks to compensate for that?

God, Murderstuck is just. It's SUCH hot garbage.

I actually want to interject here that him killing Feferi makes some sense (I said this earlier in thread with additional evidence here)

I'm with VASKA in thinking that Eridan was crushing hard on Sollux, waxing black for him that wasn't reciprocated. In normal pitch it's not supposed to rise to the point of being downright murderous and there's also the stance that Eridan didn't kill Sollux because he was still at the point he was showing mercy on Feferi's behalf. He, after all, hadn't initiated the fight and Sollux was the one who threatened to kill him. It puts him in a very good place to look better for it and for things to calm down until Feferi leaps in a rage at Eridan.



Question! Has Feferi EVER prior to this point looked so furious or exhibited this kind of raw rage at anyone? Eridan has known her longer than anyone, and from my impression Feferi has never raised her emotional response to anything aside annoyed anger. Why in the world would he, hell why would ANYONE, think she is just going to knock him out after KO'ing her boyfriend? And if you look at this composition, doesn't it look familiar to a panel that happens a little later, by someone we do know can and would have killed Eridan?



In fact, most of Murderstuck proves that KO'ing isn't ever on the table of the stakes for the trolls! Tavros faces down Vriska with firm resolution to kill her for her involvement in Bec Noir. Vriska, rather than just knocking his ass out, kills him effortlessly for his trouble. FL1P doubles down on this, since Terezi never considers the 3rd option of simply knocking Vriska out, but the black and white choice of live or die. I think that wasn't an accident to set up, same as I think the escalation of fatal consequences slid onto the table here. I actually think if Feferi got to Eridan she would have killed him!

And despite my putting on my Ace Attorney suit in defense of the Violet Prince his actions in destroying the Matriorb and killing Kanaya are actually indefensible, he clearly destroyed the Matriorb because he had no more hope for anything, and even the continuation of his species was pointless since they all were going to die and he JUST killed the target of any affections he had. Kanaya was in motion to bring her weapon out which he sees moments before he hopesploded the Matriorb, yes, but Eridan did just fucking kill someone in front of her and he was still clearly on edge.

It also is something I think is very on brand for him to do, as shitty as it is. You can see this arc in a very clear path, him snapping really wasn't surprising to me when I read it. Murderstuck was shocking, and in hindsight shit for a lot of things, but Eridan finally losing it and blasting Pumped Up Kicks was not out of character for him. He is the PRIME school shooter archetype, more so than the stupid fucking 'incel' label everyone wants to slap him with.

That said!

Eridan literally only kills two people in the comic. Not three. Two. And of them one of them resurrects and immediately reciprocates by killing him in turn. The absolute fandom enmity towards him confounds me. His actions lasting effects ONLY serve to sever Feferi from being the biologically mandated leader of the trolls. Kanaya is alive again. Kanaya undeservedly is gifted a fucking Matriorb with no effort on her part or even narrative upset over it until its handed pretty and perfect to her. Vriscourse will bend backwards to explain poor Vriska being the subject of Alternia and her upbringing while excusing her forcing Sollux to murder Aradia and crippling/killing Tavros but everyone is practically on the Eridamnation train.

Either they both are the products of their environment and their stories are tragic examples that the characters needed to learn from and become better people...or they aren't! Can't have the pie and eat it too!

[calamityCons]

Jakemorph, I wrote a lot about why I thought it didn't make sense for Eridan to destroy the matriorb in my big fuckin. Essay that I wrote, in that post up there. I've put a lot of thought into Eridan and trying to understand him thanks to being completely baffled by his behavior, and I tried to be clear and cite sources and explain my interpretation of him and his actions. I feel like you're dismissing all of that by quipping about the matriorb when I wrote so much in my post about why I thought that wasn't his own behavior but the hand of the plot creeping in and making things bleaker for no reason.

And Sahxyel, you're pretty spot on about Eridan being a school shooter archetype. And ultimately I find his actions believable in that sense, I just don't like it because of the things you mentioned about Vriscourse bending over backwards to let her have her time in the limelight and winning the prize. Eridan is much less dangerous than Vriska ever was, and I'm kinder to him because of that. I think Eridan is a complex character in the same way that Vriska is, and not nearly as shallow as the fandom paints him as. There are many interpretations of Eridan that can be made.

Edit: I also agree that Eridan's major detriments to the plot (killing Kanaya and destroying the Matriorb) were ultimately fucking meaningless because they get asspulled back into existence, so ultimately the lasting consequences of his actions are: Feferi is dead. And evidently Feferi was a side character that was never supposed to be important to begin with I guess, so, he's just a two-bit villain who can't even wreak havoc right.

[Leddy]

While I can understand dissatisfaction with having differing treatment between Vriska and Eridan (I don't get it either mind you it's dumb that Vriska gets such sugercoating neither of them deserve it.) I stand by disliking Eridan regardless. Just because his actions get essentially fixed because of poor story-telling doesn't make his actions any better. In the context of the moment what Eridan did was horrible with Kanaya and the matriorb, especially the matriorb.

I'll disagree with the opinion that Eridan destroying the matriorb wasn't within his character or his self because by and large he'd wanted to do similar stuff before and just hadn't because he had Feferi there to stop him while he still had a shot with her, defending or liking him and his genocidal tendencies is pretty hard. He has a relatable issue of loneliness but not at all a relatable or likable personality and is by and large responsible for a number of his own problems. He has a better situation in the comic than the others, like again Vriska who had Spidermom and would be more than likely have been culled should she not feed spidermom, or like Karkat who was literally at constant fear of being culled because he was a mutant, or Tavros who was literally paralyzed from the legs down which is practically a death sentence on Alternia, and yet he turns out to be one of the absolute worst trolls in the group, bar Vriska (Who at least does get some likable or semi-likable traits IMO), and what was his challenge again? Feeding Glub Glub for Feferi so he could try and get into the flushed quadrant with her? When he wants the outcome of that as well, just not as much as a flushed quad with Feferi? No thank you. To be fair he does have societal expectations weighing down on him, but unlike others he gets influenced by those ideas to an extreme and believes in them.

What Eridan does is some of the most morally fucked up shit out of the group, again bar Vriska in my opinion, what with pretty much commiting genocide by destroying the matriorb without provocation. I don't hate Eridan because of his impact on the story because it WAS negligible and literally forgotten farther on, I hate Eridan because he comes off as one of the least likable characters overall in Homestuck for me beyond the absolutely fucked up shit he does, even if it's negligible later on

[Leddy]

With all that being said, I still really want to like Eridan. It sucks that I'm stuck without any reason I can really find to like him because he is an interesting character and there are interesting takes of him out and about, but it just doesn't match how Eridan is in the comics and that's just the unfortunate situation.

I hope his PQ route is good and can present something that might change my mind on these things, but as it stands I can't really defend nor like Eridan very much.

[calamityCons]

And you're completely valid for having that opinion! Your interpretation is valid and correct, and it can successfully incorporate everything about him into a cohesive character. He's definitely an antagonist, a villain at worst, and he's nowhere near Anti-Hero status because he's genuinely a douche and an entitled brat who shits the bed of his own relationships. You are not required to like Eridan just because I do, or because others do. I dislike the decisions Eridan made in the story because, from my perspective and interpretation of Eridan while reading serially, it didn't seem to make any sense. In retrospect, I guess he's just Yet Another Shallow Archetype among a menagerie of other Shallow Archetypes among the Troll characters. He CAN have depth to him, but it involves paying more attention to the story than we're apparently supposed to.

I don't want anyone to feel invalidated or like they HAVE to agree with me just because I wrote a lot of words about a hypothetical person in a story on the internet.

[Leddy]

And you're completely valid for having that opinion! Your interpretation is valid and correct, and it can successfully incorporate everything about him into a cohesive character. He's definitely an antagonist, a villain at worst, and he's nowhere near Anti-Hero status because he's genuinely a douche and an entitled brat who shits the bed of his own relationships. You are not required to like Eridan just because I do, or because others do. I dislike the decisions Eridan made in the story because, from my perspective and interpretation of Eridan while reading serially, it didn't seem to make any sense. In retrospect he's ultimately just Yet Another Shallow Archetype among a menagerie of other Shallow Archetypes among the Troll characters. He CAN have depth to him, but it involves paying more attention to the story than we're apparently supposed to.

I don't want anyone to feel invalidated or like they HAVE to agree with me just because I wrote a lot of words about a hypothetical person in a story on the internet.

I wasn't implying you were trying to make me agree, I genuinely do want to like Eridan. I want to like all the characters and I do for the most part like and enjoy all the characters, it's just really unfortunate because I see the room for the depth as well but like I said there are interesting and good takes of him, but the worst of his actions in comic get solidified in a dumb way and it makes me really have a hard time grasping anythng to like Eridan by myself.

I enjoy having debates and talking about stuff like this because it can sometimes result in a new perspective by which to like something by, hence why I participate in this discussion in the first place. I just wanted to let it be clear that I don't like hate the idea of Eridan nor the good takes, but what I see in the comic and what he seems to be in my perspective.

[calamityCons]

Sounds like a good attitude to me. I'm a sensitive person and I try to find a balance between feeling heard and helping others feel heard. Let's cross our fingers and hope Eridan's route can shine some more light on him, see if we learn anything new about him or can push him toward self improvement in some way. The PQ routes are a bit of a mixed bag in this regard. We learn new things about Dave, Karkat, Equius, and Nepeta. We get a chance to help improve the lives of Jade, Vriska, Terezi, and Tavros. But other characters we just kind of hang out with and spin our wheels doing nothing in particular, like with John, Kanaya, Gamzee, and Sollux. It'd be nice if Eridan were one of the characters that got some of that Good Shit.

[Leddy]

Sounds like a good attitude to me. I'm a sensitive person and I try to find a balance between feeling heard and helping others feel heard. Let's cross our fingers and hope Eridan's route can shine some more light on him, see if we learn anything new about him or can push him toward self improvement in some way. The PQ routes are a bit of a mixed bag in this regard. We learn new things about Dave, Karkat, Equius, and Nepeta. We get a chance to help improve the lives of Jade, Vriska, Terezi, and Tavros. But other characters we just kind of hang out with and spin our wheels doing nothing in particular, like with John, Kanaya, Gamzee, and Sollux. It'd be nice if Eridan were one of the characters that got some of that Good Shit.

I've liked all of the PQ routes so far, though yeah I could see why John, Kanaya, or Gamzee's routes aren't as interesting. What I'm scared of is that Eridan is gonna get the Gamzee treatment and get more focus towards the overall narrative story of PQ. With Griever as the writer though and how they seem a bit more interactive and happy about Eridan's route maybe we will get something nice. I certainly hope so. I want to learn new things about him and get a better view of him, get a reason to believe he's not actually inclined to his genocide more properly not just a hint, get a better look at his personality that I may find something likable out of or the like, etc.

Let's hope for the best

[calamityCons]

I’d like to discuss Eridan specifically within the context of his Pesterquest route and the topics of discussion we can glean from it. I’m personally a but fan of his route and I enjoyed it immensely, though I do not deny that he had a lot of bad pacing, bizarre dialogue, and it suffered from many issues the other pesterquest routes also had.

However, I did find it nice to learn a little more about him. I had neutral expectations going in and I enjoyed what I expected to get: a broad strokes overview of Eridan, with some blatant fanservice of him having a collection of dresses and an even more badass fanservice moment of having an epic anime lazer fight with sollux (who seems to ambiguously reciprocate Eridan’s hatecrush??? It’s not really that clear).

[Sahxyel]

The Pesterquest Update

I never knew I could take psychic damage before but there's a first time for everything. I hated it. I hate it so much. I HATE it. HATE. A DEEP ROILIN PITCH FURY ROSE FROM MY SOUL THAT WILL NEVER CEASE.

[Dream Muttman]

Eridan puts off genocide by fishing for Feferi's lusus. He considers stopping and chooses not to because:

But nah. It would make her upset.

More emotions. More problems. That's all you need.

In context that's pretty big, mostly because genocide isn't really taken seriously in Homestuck because nobody exists outside of the main cast.

Still it shows that he's not just doing it because he has a shallow crush. He genuinely cares about her feelings.

[calamityCons]

AGREED, Muttman. Super duper strong agree. On literally everything you said, ESPECIALLY about how Nobody Exists Outside the Main Cast. Genocide is really thrown around like crazy just like death means nothing in Homestuck.