True Roles of Carapacians

[foreverFlummoxed]

We all know that The Game (SBURB/SGRUB/any other possible variant that could exist) has many cosmic uses in creating a universe, perpetuating it's own existence, horrorterror shenanigans, and other grand things, but what about The Game as, well, a game. Usually everything in a game has purpose and is put it for a reason, but even if the base game is essentially the same, the experience of the players may be entirely different (see the Crash Bandicoot discussion between John and Karkat.)
so here I pose a simple question: Carapaces, what do they do? Now obviously: they fight a war, white side attacks first, and black side wins causing the reckoning; but there are instances of special Carapacians that do more than just fight in the war (ex. Warweary Villein and Parcel Mistress)

So, From an Entirely Game-Play Perspective. What do you think Special Carapaces do for the game? (Carapaces as exiles can be separate from what they do "in-game" but do not have to be separated into a separate post/section)

(to clarify: It has been stated before that perhaps a WV is in every session, implying that just because special Carapacians exist, doesn't mean The Game will use them)


I'll start:

Warweary Villein (Incipisphere/"in-game")

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I believe that the true purpose of the Warweary Villein is to delay the reckoning by uniting a force of two armies to fight back against the Black King. My reasoning is that in the Beta kid's session it is stated that their reckoning is going to happen too quick, and the fairly normal SGRUB beta session is compared to, as it's reckoning happened near the end of there several weeks session. The only reason that WV seemingly failed is that the Sovereign Slayer (a mode for Jack Noir) simultaneously came into play to early and was too powerful (ergo: Jack Noir fucked up the game progression a lot)

[Mandy]

Some of the special carapaces are only special by circumstance. PM is a good example. Her entire quest only happened because a mail deliverer carapace happened to find some very important mail that needed to be delivered. Same with AR. Jade said outright that there are multiple ARs, the AR just happened to be one who stumbled into something important.

At the same time, the Exiles' long-term purpose, to rebuild civilization after the Reckoning, definitely benefits from the fact that so many of the coincidentally relevant Exiles were such civic-minded public servants. My thinking is that's not a coincidence. Along with the inherently important carapaces like WV and SS that do something relevant in every session, there's a lot of potentially important carapaces that are likely to find themselves in such situations. Like in game terms, more of a pool of randomly generated NPCs that the game can refer to when the need arises, rather than a scripted NPC with a scripted role.

[foreverFlummoxed]

Some of the special carapaces are only special by circumstance. PM is a good example. Her entire quest only happened because a mail deliverer carapace happened to find some very important mail that needed to be delivered. Same with AR. Jade said outright that there are multiple ARs, the AR just happened to be one who stumbled into something important.

At the same time, the Exiles' long-term purpose, to rebuild civilization after the Reckoning, definitely benefits from the fact that so many of the coincidentally relevant Exiles were such civic-minded public servants. My thinking is that's not a coincidence. Along with the inherently important carapaces like WV and SS that do something relevant in every session, there's a lot of potentially important carapaces that are likely to find themselves in such situations. Like in game terms, more of a pool of randomly generated NPCs that the game can refer to when the need arises, rather than a scripted NPC with a scripted role.

The thing is, WV, PM, SS/Jack, the AR, and Jack's three loyal and deadliest subordinates are in every session, but that doesn't mean that they will do important things. The WV of SGRUB beta most likely did nothing, as the reckoning happen at a fairly normal time, while in SBURB alpha (if he even existed, it's unclear whether he spawns from the battlefield at a certain stage in its prototypings) the WV wouldn't have had any reason to come into play, as the kings were locked in permanent stalemate. While i do believe it is possible for a normal carapace to stumble into doing things, although highly unlikely since paradox space likes to shaft literally everybody, I do not believe that PM and the AR are just normal Carapacians and that PM's immense dedication to the job and AR's not very good (comparatively) at doing the job he loves are programmed and they are special, by a game standard. As exiles, the roles of Carapacians completely change, though their personalities are what dictate how they approach the goal as a collective with others, or by themselves. Most ARs are probably not special, but that doesn't mean that the game could have selected a handful of ARs to be special like/similar to the AR seen in SBURB beta. It's more of a programming look at The Game instead of a fate/overall meaning perspective.

[overThinker]

It's more of a programming look at The Game instead of a fate/overall meaning perspective.

taking this into account, i don't really think that the game selectively chooses certain carapacians to be special. each "special" carapacian that homestuck shows us has a significance that is (both directly and indirectly) dependent upon the actions of the players. b1 jack would not be special if the beta kids hadn't prototyped the harlequin doll, b1 wv would not be special if b1 jack weren't powerful, b1 pm and ar would not be special if dad egbert's car didn't fall from lowas's sky, providing them with jade's package, etcetera. given this information, i want to assume that each carapace is an entirely discrete and autonomous artificial intelligence manufactured by the game, and thus each session is completely identical until its players exert their influence (be it with dream selves, prototyping, entering, or anything else).

so, to answer the initial question, i believe that special carapaces are meant to do precisely and exactly whatever it is that the session's circumstantial players motivate them to do. this seems to be the only logical explanation that accords with each session's similitude. the "special" carapaces just seem to be easier to motivate to action than others (jack's irritability and violence, wv's democratic hope, pm's diligence, etcetera), which are all traits that seem to be innately programmed into them by the game. there's no evidence that the game didn't program more individual and "special" carapaces; homestuck's special carapaces are simply the ones whom were most motivated to take action by homestuck's circumstances.

[rubs juice]

I've done a lot of thinking about carapaces, both as a species and as a game construct. My thoughts so far, when it comes to them as game constructs, are:

• Carapaces are NPCs that fight an endless war that will only be stopped by the players; the progression of that works very much like an mmorpg's co-op campaign storyline ("two armies are fighting, you and your friends join one side, the army itself fails (giving place to the reckoning, the climax of the story), and in a final boss battle, you defeat the opposing army and bring peace to the land")

• After the reckoning, carapaces that are pre-selected by the game are, by some set of events that's random, exiled, to live in the post-apocalyptic planet the players come from. These carapaces will be the ones that will rebuild society there.

• Some of them (and they might or might not be the same key-players in rebuilding society, although beta session and alpha troll session make it seem like it is*) are also selected to be the players' secondary guides, acting as a semi-parental figure when the sprites themselves are left behind, while not being actual physical beings the players interact with, having their commands be interpreted as either voices in their heads or an unconscious urge to do or think something by the player. Which exiles are selected and which players they're paired with is not random, but instead made to maximize their personality dynamic to achieve amicable interactions (think of the exiles and their kids and you'll realize they have more in common than it seems)

• It's highly probably that all sessions have the same blank slate carapaces, but which of them become exiles or which become guides for the players isn't set in stone. What is set in stone is that all sessions have to have exiles that will be actively leading the reconstruction of society in the post-apocalyptic planet (think the Mayor and his obsession with building a democratic society and the other four exiles, AR, PM, WQ and WK, and which societal pillar they fill, and Spades Slick literally building a city in the barren alternian desert with the help of his crew, and how that reflects both in the differences between Alternian and Earth societal values and what kind of society they intend to shape)

footnote

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*I'd like to parenthesis this by saying that out of the five sessions we see in homestuck, the alpha troll session is the closest to "how it's supposed to be", so when making assumptions we should probably use that session as a basis instead of the other four. The beta kids' session required a scratch and was born out of a "cancerous" or "abnormal" universe; the alpha kids' session is a void session, basically barren and doomed to fail; the dancestors' session required a scratch due to the unpreparedness of the players; the cherub session was a single player one that does not generate a universe and in fact plays too differently from a regular session to be able to be a reliable source.

[foreverFlummoxed]

Since there are multiple iterations of the game beyond what we see in Homestuck (Fedora Freak, probably other universes that played and beat the game normally) this is more of a speculation on, in a normal game (where the universe isn't Cancerous, a Void session is played, or a dead session is played) what do Carapacians with obvious big roles (exiles are separate but equal) do in a normal game? The thing with SBURB beta was that is was very close to being a normal winnable session, but outside forces prevented it so (even the battlefield and genesis frog from the beta session were used for the Earth C universe) taking that into consideration, I surmise that just because the Trolls beta session was a win (until the end) that doesn't mean that every session will win like that. So to return to my WV's GAME ROLE speculation, in the Incipisphere: delay the reckoning by fighting back the Black King (only if the reckoning is in danger of being activated too soon) as an Exile: influence the rebuilding of society with democracy and preventing a monarchy. (Since the role in the Incipisphere and on the destroyed player's planet are very different that is why they are separate)

I've had some time to think about PM and the role The Game made her for in the Incipisphere: I actually think that her pursuing the Sovereign Slayer is very accurate to her game role, although not exclusively that. PM is most likely a formidable ally put in place for players that, though prototyping, accidentally create bosses too powerful for them to overcome, leading them to find a carapace so dedicated to doing her job that she'll meet with the royalty of her side to formulate a plan of action and the archagent of the opposing kingdom in order to gather the means to do so (a sword, possible blind eyes towards her actions) and perhaps not necessarily in that order. So perhaps if you are unable to recruit Jack Noir to help banish the Black Queen, PM would be the second option along with how PM would help in the fight against the Sovereign Slayer if he was to come into play in the session (Jack Noir's primary role is to take BQ out of the picture with the secondary role trying to get the ring for Slayer mode, causing one boss to be replaced with another.) PM is also probably one of the only NPCs that can negotiate the release of the White Queen's ring/White King's scepter from them in order to keep them from enemy hands (probably, and most likely only temporarily if the player's leave things to play out.)

PM as an exile: a reluctant world leader, so probably the best choice for leading the rebuilding of a world. Although she may not fully know how to lead at first, her inherit dedication to the job would allow her to persevere towards being the best leader she can be. (In Homestuck she was going to fulfill this role until her old role came back to her and presented itself as much more important)

[Bahinchut]

Most named carapacians are weirder cases because unlike Jack and WV, their roles arent quite as explicit. AR and PM are only significant because of the extremely specific circumstances of Jade's package. As far as I remember there are no other explicitly special carapace NPCs beyond the Royalty. I think both Queens act as a mode for which a very large amount of exiles can reach the ruined planet. Depending on how your game spans out, if either you exile the Black Queen and/or the White Queen loses her ring and flees, they would typically help rebuild civilisation by commanding their subjects. Besides that, the Kings and Jack are obvious and practically need no explaining/speculation.

I guess it could be interesting to speculate on what other carapacians could do if they were to become special somehow, should the circumstances be right. The alpha session is an oddball because of the Condesce, but I assume if Jack were to die somehow, DD would still become the new archagent. Sort of like how you can kill an important NPC in some video games and see their role assumed by someone else.

This scenario would almost surely lock you out of Operation Regisurp. DD has been shown to have mutinous thoughts, but he doesn't seem to have to ambition to act on them. He'd arguably be a better archagent than Jack in every respect sans his ability to process paperwork. He wouldn't have a very strong relationship either way with the Queen, he would probably command his subordinates better and he'd be much harder for the Black Queen to tease. Still, there might be some very particular cases where you could convince DD to work with you. In these cases he'd be much easier to work with than Jack, and he might not even try to betray you at the end. Lording over Derse might just be all he needs.

Presumably, Prospit also has a rank of agents. We see some of the lower standing agents in act 6, keeping Jack in line while he serves his sentence. WQ seemed to give up her ring fairly easily in act 4, but she seems to know that the session is doomed. Perhaps Prospit's archagent could be similarly traitorous as a way to obtain WQ's ring before defeating the Black King, though I'm not sure why you'd want to do this. They could also be a deterrent from betraying Prospit, becoming hostile to you after having aggravated the Royalty somehow.

[mightyhydrator]

I think the thing about this whole shebang is that the agents (JN, DD, CD, HB), along with the four royals, are the only carapaces to consistently play roles in sessions. Some people here said that WV is also a universal constant, however, it must be noted that we do not hear of any mutiny on the A2 battlefield, and BK's armies are stronger than ever when we hear about the fight. Thus it should be thought that WV does not play a consistent role in SBURB.

Now, the agents is where the meat of this discussion is. Jack is placed in the game into a very high position with a hateful disposition towards BQ and all players. This means that if he by isn't default going to try anything, literally any actions the players take will involve Jack on some level. All known sessions (besides A1, of which we know the least) have Jack doing stuff, whether all on his own (B1), or on behalf of a player (C), or under some other circumstances, and most of those actions involve his subordinates.

Basically: Jack is ensured to be a big part of the adventure by the very nature of SBURB, and under most circumstances, so are the other 3 agents. Any other carapace (WV, PM, etc.) are capable of playing a role, but it is not a sure thing the way it is with Jack. (as I mentioned, he has a high position, and none of the other Normal Carapaces that aren't already involved with him that we know of do)

It goes without saying that the royals, half of which are final bosses, are definitely involved, and the other half plays an ally role to the players, and judging by B1, even at detriment to the kingdom. (there's some nuance with the "detriment" part, but that seems to be the gist of it)

[foreverFlummoxed]

I think the thing about this whole shebang is that the agents (JN, DD, CD, HB), along with the four royals, are the only carapaces to consistently play roles in sessions. Some people here said that WV is also a universal constant, however, it must be noted that we do not hear of any mutiny on the A2 battlefield, and BK's armies are stronger than ever when we hear about the fight. Thus it should be thought that WV does not play a consistent role in SBURB.

Now, the agents is where the meat of this discussion is. Jack is placed in the game into a very high position with a hateful disposition towards BQ and all players. This means that if he by isn't default going to try anything, literally any actions the players take will involve Jack on some level. All known sessions (besides A1, of which we know the least) have Jack doing stuff, whether all on his own (B1), or on behalf of a player (C), or under some other circumstances, and most of those actions involve his subordinates.

Basically: Jack is ensured to be a big part of the adventure by the very nature of SBURB, and under most circumstances, so are the other 3 agents. Any other carapace (WV, PM, etc.) are capable of playing a role, but it is not a sure thing the way it is with Jack. (as I mentioned, he has a high position, and none of the other Normal Carapaces that aren't already involved with him that we know of do)

It goes without saying that the royals, half of which are final bosses, are definitely involved, and the other half plays an ally role to the players, and judging by B1, even at detriment to the kingdom. (there's some nuance with the "detriment" part, but that seems to be the gist of it)

Yes, Jack is in every session but, out of the four (with two being almost normal sessions) we see him in, only once has Jack initiated Sovereign Slayer Mode. just because he can does not mean he will every time no matter what.

Here is the original post that partly inspired this thread:

So if this IS taken as "SBURB uses template(s?)" than the discussion of this thread would be: What are the possible functions of each piece? SBURB is a game after all, meaning that there is a set reason WV exists besides the cop out reason of "fate." it's not about "this happens because fate and every session is different" it's more about "action A happens due to subject B doing something abnormal, therefore subject D performs action C to prevent subject B from making the game impossible to win"

side note: SBURB/SGRUB does technically have three (technically two if void is taken as a "starts as Normal" session) bases: Normal, (multiple players prototype enough for the battle field to be ripe for universe) Void, (multiple players fail to prototype meaning battlefield doesn't advance enough to help create the universe even if the space player is successful at breeding the genesis frog) and Dead (single player, session in which makes the game nearly impossible to beat with a possible exception to the Lord class)
side note side note: by "Void id modded Normal session" i mean there could be an interpretation that a void session will "become" a Void session only if the prerequisites (failure of any prototypings) are met also the term "null session" refers to a session that fails to breed a genesis frog.

[calamityCons]

Think of WV as a possible side quest. Perhaps WV’s rebellion always happens and subsequently always fails. In this case, you could theoretically have a session where both the Midnight Crew and WV’s Rebellion become activated in the Side Quest bar, as alternate ways to get rid of the black royalty without having to fight a big fuck you final boss battle. If you have a player who can “tame Jack Noir” you can go through the side quest that nixes the Black Queen. You can also have another player who, like Rose in [S] Seer: Descend, can go to the battlefield and hear the legend of WV, which puts THAT side-quest in the Sode Quest Bar. If you follow the path you could feasibly convince WV to go all Old West Retired Cowboy on the black king’s ass and have the Dersite army weakened to all hell as well as maybe even kickingBK out of the session entirely through exile, thus completing the Fight Derse side plot and focusing on the frog stuff.

[mightyhydrator]

Yes, Jack is in every session but, out of the four (with two being almost normal sessions) we see him in, only once has Jack initiated Sovereign Slayer Mode. just because he can does not mean he will every time no matter what.

Except this isn't true. Jack initiated Sovereign Slayer in two sessions: A2 and B1, just that in A2 BQ ensured Jack's exile and the ring's destruction before he can take it for himself (ie his plan was in motion, but was subverted). In B2 he didn't show disdain for royalty because the black queen wasn't there, though he was still planning on on taking the reigns. In C,Caliborn's quest necessitated BQ's defeat, and Jack was all too happy to assist, after which Caliborn got rid of him.

Jack will always be stewing with ambition and on the path of making them reality. This is something the game always does, either in service or to the detriment of the players.

Also, I am confused by what you're talking about irt session types. Void sessions are defined by a complete lack of pre-entry prototypings, whereas a null session is simply any session that does not mature a genesis frog, and Dead sessions are seen as only possibly winnable by Lords of Time. I am not sure what the purpose of this tangent is.

and hear the legend of WV, which puts THAT side-quest in the Sode Quest Bar.

I am not sure if I am really arguing against what you're saying, but Skaia only generates stuff like this if it's definitely going to happen in the session (like what it does with kernel towers in void sessions). That "quest prompt" would only exist if WV is already going to rise up, and as I said before, we never hear of any insurrection on the battlefield in A2, though I do not know what caused WV to rally everyone in B1, as from his perspective, the session hasn't yet deviated from its normal course. I don't think it's got anything to do with the reckoning, which is what fF proposed, as the reckoning in B1 is caused by Jack's ascension and WQ's abdication, which happened not only at the same time with [S]WV:Ru, but also kind of independently of one another, so there's no way WV could even kinda theoretically delay the reckoning.

[calamityCons]

I don’t know why one would think WV had anything to do with the Reckoning either? The reason WV rises up is because his attempt to live a peaceful life was destroyed by regular old Skaian world war shenanigans. It’s easy for me to believe that his farm always gets destroyed, and the players are the ones who either learn about that Quest Flag and trigger this side quest or completely ignore it and thus never encounter it.

[foreverFlummoxed]

Skaia deals in purpose, every bit of the game has a purpose so that it isn't too easy for the players to finish the game or keep the game from being impossible to beat as long as possible. if they can make the genesis frog but can't get their stuff together good enough to beat the bosses properly, can they be trusted to govern the new universe? if they can beat the bosses but fail in the perfect genesis frog breeding, than the universe they make will suffer. It's not necessarily that WV does the revolution to delay the reckoning, it's that the game sets up a backup plan in case the Black King is going to win too early, which would is what starts the reckoning. So The Game/Skaia realizes that "oh damn, this is happening way too early, the players won't have any chance to win now... better use plan B, hey WV your farm is now destroyed, go delay the Black King by uniting a large portion of both armies against him."

Even Jack's Sovereign Slayer mode has an unseen purpose: The Black Queen is stated as a secondary boss you would have to fight along with the final boss of The King, and if you can successfully get rid of her, either through exile or you get Jack's help, than she will be out of the picture for good... but if the player's ignore Jack or just give the ring to him, then Jack now effectively serves as the new secondary boss you need to face. (B1 Sovereign Slayer killing the King and being that powerful obviously is not meant too happen with a normal SS. Which is why Skaia's plan B to delay an early reckoning failed)

Except this isn't true. Jack initiated Sovereign Slayer in two sessions: A2 and B1

Where is your evidence for A2 Sovereign Slayer exactly? If Jack is successful in obtaining the ring after overthrowing the queen in whatever way he sees fit (make an alliance or just plain murder) than he ascends to Sovereign Slayer status, I thought that much was clear? the word "Sovereign" does in fact mean "Ruler" or "Monarch"

side note: maybe this thread was a sinking ship from the start. :\

[mightyhydrator]

So The Game/Skaia realizes that "oh damn, this is happening way too early, the players won't have any chance to win now... better use plan B, hey WV your farm is now destroyed, go delay the Black King by uniting a large portion of both armies against him.

I hope you mean "oh damn, this is gonna happen way too early, better ensure plan B happens and WV's farm is destroyed, also let's put a delayed timer on the reckoning so that nothing is Weird", since game events like these are premeditated, rather than activated (skaia can't even do anything outside the portals)

B1 Sovereign Slayer killing the King and being that powerful obviously is not meant too happen with a normal SS. Which is why Skaia's plan B to delay an early reckoning failed)

Why do you assume that? The fact that Jack went after BK immediately after getting power should tell you that this is his ambition; hell, it's *in his name*, he kills sovereigns. Not just that, his ambition is to *be* a Sovereign. If he gets the ring, his order of business is securing rule, which means BK must die.
Also, WV being B1 Skaia's response to an early reckoning doesn't make sense - the reckoning was already rigged to start, what was it, 24 hours after John's entry? 10 hours? The point is that Skaia *knew* Jack was going to start the reckoning at some specific time, and set the timer accordingly. WV could literally never, not in a million years affect that, not even retroactively, simply because the timer did not account for him. Thus him delaying the reckoning can't be his purpose - the one time we see it happen has 0 theoretical effect besides make the battlefield less of a clusterfuck (and you know, timeloop stuff)

Where is your evidence for A2 Sovereign Slayer exactly? If Jack is successful in obtaining the ring after overthrowing the queen in whatever way he sees fit (make an alliance or just plain murder) than he ascends to Sovereign Slayer status, I thought that much was clear? the word "Sovereign" does in fact mean "Ruler" or "Monarch"

If you read what I wrote after that, you'd know that I couldn't have implied he got the ring. Your assessment was that Jack only acted on his ambition of becoming the Slayer only in B1, which isn't true, as in A2 his plan was just subverted before it came to fruition. Like, he always *acts*, he just doesn't always get the chance to realize his dreams.

[foreverFlummoxed]

Where is your evidence for A2 Sovereign Slayer exactly? If Jack is successful in obtaining the ring after overthrowing the queen in whatever way he sees fit (make an alliance or just plain murder) than he ascends to Sovereign Slayer status, I thought that much was clear? the word "Sovereign" does in fact mean "Ruler" or "Monarch"

If you read what I wrote after that, you'd know that I couldn't have implied he got the ring. Your assessment was that Jack only acted on his ambition of becoming the Slayer only in B1, which isn't true, as in A2 his plan was just subverted before it came to fruition. Like, he always *acts*, he just doesn't always get the chance to realize his dreams.

Jack tried to get SS mode but he failed, he will always try, but only once (in Homestuck) did he succeed in initiating Sovereign Slayer.

Except this isn't true. Jack initiated Sovereign Slayer in two sessions: A2 and B1, just that in A2 BQ ensured Jack's exile and the ring's destruction before he can take it for himself (ie his plan was in motion, but was subverted).

This is actually a direct contradiction, "he initiated SS mode, except he didn't"



I think for the time being i'll just give up on this thread for awhile

From an Entirely Game-Play Perspective

people just seem to go for the "fate/absolutely everything in every session is unique to that session" which wasn't the original intent

So for now I'm just gonna tie a towel to a stick to use as a proverbial surrender flag before throwing the flag in as a proverbial towel