Dancestors and Dancestor Things

[Darth_Energon]

I think Dancestors suck!

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[YoItsCro]

I think Dancestors suck!
Fred.jpg

Your commentary has been taken into consideration, Freddy.

[YoItsCro]

I'd like to add that we also haven't got the books yet for Openbound.

As in the current run of Homestuck books with author commentary. It's going to be a long day, but I look forward to that day as much as I fear it.

[Darth_Energon]

I'd like to add that we also haven't got the books yet for Openbound.

As in the current run of Homestuck books with author commentary. It's going to be a long day, but I look forward to that day as much as I fear it.

Openbound is probably several years off

[YoItsCro]

I'd like to add that we also haven't got the books yet for Openbound.

As in the current run of Homestuck books with author commentary. It's going to be a long day, but I look forward to that day as much as I fear it.

Openbound is probably several years off

Absolutely it is.

[KNA]

buying Meulin gf

[JakeMorph]

as much as i love a lot of the dancestors as story elements (i struggle to call them 'characters', but the character side of homestuck was never the main appeal to me. i think most of them are really funny), i feel like their presence in the story sort of collapses a little bit of the necessary magic that was holding the story together. in the signless' story we're told he had a past life that was basically really good, that he fought to try to make alternia just as good as his past life, and that karkat would essentially inherit this Make Alternia Cool responsibility from him. if beforus was also a kind of shitty racist eugenics state, what was karkat even meant to be fighting for? Alternia... 2? i guess he would kind of like that at first but i dont think many other people would.

that being said i guess a big part of homestuck later on was that prophecies were basically bull shit (see: anything anyone ever said about beating english). so in that line of thinking, i guess it would have been cool to have this dissonance between "Beforus as the Garden of Eden" and "Beforus as just a prototype of Alternia" pointed out in the comic? like i would have liked to see karkat really start to talk to the dancestors and realise wow! everything has always sucked apparently! maybe this will motivate me to change things in the future.

anyway i think the dancestors are at their best when they highlight the differences between the two troll worlds, and that's why i like porrim a whole lot. it bums me out when people say "well the stuff porrim says isnt really important because it just applies to beforus and not alternia" because i always understood her statements as sort of "foiling" alternian society in a way. i understand that she was conceived as being a kind of deliberately obnoxious character but i honestly never saw her that way. i was always rly interested in the stuff she had to say and imo it's essential material in terms of making sense of troll culture.

[VASKA]

Some sizzling takes here: Kurloz has the potential to be one of the most interesting characters in the comic.

Keep in mind I say one of. Like, top 5 maybe.

I think he's honestly really interesting when you dive into what character traits we know about him. He strikes me as an incredibly guilt-driven character--even as much as he's a servant of LE (A servant who mostly just...makes their clothes? I mean honestly he doesn't even do anything bad in the grand scheme.)

He accidentally hurts Meulin, and self-mutilates to make sure he never does anything of the like again. He's implied to have at least been around during Mituna's accident. It's also claimed that Mituna is coherent around him-he does what he can to keep his brain together. I honestly think Kurloz genuinely likes those around him, but is too resigned to LE to really do anything about it.

I agree that Kurloz is probably the most interesting character in the comic, but I'd say it's because he's probably one of the most evil, not remorseful.

Remember that Kurloz is a Prince of Rage, and the extended zodiac tells us that Rage is intimately connected to truth. Now, what circumstances seems to surround Kurloz? Well, things tend to go wrong whenever he's alone with the people that trust them. What's those people don't tend to be able to communicate what happened very easily. Mituna? Brain damaged to the point where he can barely communicate. Meulin? She was asleep at the time she went deaf, and on top of that spends a lot of her time under the influence of Chucklevoodoos. Now, you could easily argue that Kurloz was genuinely remorseful about what happened with Meulin, but let's take a closer look at that in relation to his classpect: he bit off his tongue. In other words, he's not talking, either. Anyone who knows what really happened to Meulin or Mituna is literally incapable of telling anyone else, although since Kurloz knows sign language and can speak with chucklevoodoos, his is more symbolic. His contribution to his session was running around, causing havoc, and then destroying the truth about what really happened.

Not that we needed the extended zodiac to tell us something was fishy about this. The comic seems to draw attention to the fact that bad things happen to Kurloz's "loved ones" when they're left alone with him. I actually think this element of Kurloz is a parody of how Gamzee's fans at the time saw Gamzee: "he didn't actually do anything wrong, everything was the result of circumstances beyond his control, he would be a sweet, kind juggalo if X didn't happen to him!". This is what the discourse around Gamzee looked like at the time, and this is how Kurloz's team mates unironically view him, but at the end of the day, they are both cruel, violent bastards, and homestuck's equivalent of devil-worshippers. Kurloz has destroyed the lives of his partners, then destroyed the truth surrounding his evil nature and made everyone think he's the victim.

[furrylatula]

Not that we needed the extended zodiac to tell us something was fishy about this. The comic seems to draw attention to the fact that bad things happen to Kurloz's "loved ones" when they're left alone with him. I actually think this element of Kurloz is a parody of how Gamzee's fans at the time saw Gamzee: "he didn't actually do anything wrong, everything was the result of circumstances beyond his control, he would be a sweet, kind juggalo if X didn't happen to him!". This is what the discourse around Gamzee looked like at the time, and this is how Kurloz's team mates unironically view him, but at the end of the day, they are both cruel, violent bastards, and homestuck's equivalent of devil-worshippers. Kurloz has destroyed the lives of his partners, then destroyed the truth surrounding his evil nature and made everyone think he's the victim.

i haaaaaaaated kurloz at first because i couldn't work out how his caring past persona was supposed to match up with his current flagrant manipulation of those around him. then it hit me that it's always been a facade. he never gave a shit about meulin and probably bit out his tongue as virtue-signalling

"boo hoo look at me im a sad clown who is so VERY remorseful about the terrible and 100% unintentional thing that wasnt my fault but i felt so bad anyways that i self mutilated. pay no attention to the fact that i have ties to nearly every single thing that went wrong in a1"

i still hate him because unrepentant sociopaths arent my thing unless theyre funny but at least i, like, grok him

[YoItsCro]

Kurloz has destroyed the lives of his partners, then destroyed the truth surrounding his evil nature and made everyone think he's the victim.

Nice observation; for some reason it completely skipped my mind that rage = truth and that something like this is absolutely plausible with that in mind, outside of the fact that he very clearly is a not so nice clown. I personally still enjoy the idea of Kurloz giving somewhat of a care about Meulin and Mituna, frankly so it doesn't leave him so one noted in terms of the villain trope for those who want to do more with his character. However, I flip around for him a lot and enjoy the idea of him being the secret manipulator that nobody expects, even to people that he "cares" about for the greater good of his gods. Falls into reasons why I absolutely believe he's the cause of Mituna's "accident".

As a side note it's double amusing that if he destroys truth that he's able to sneak right underneath Aranea's nose, despite her prideful habit of knowing about everything going on. She very clearly doesn't expect much of him, from her booth description of him, to her subtle foreshadows of him in Cronus and Mituna's descriptions, to even her line toward Gamzee about how Kurloz did them all a favor by sewing his mouth shut with no regard as to the importance of why.

[YoItsCro]

Some neat, random dancestor observations and thoughts from some of those observations I want to share:

Damara is seen saying foul, antagonistic (and offensive) things toward people, but it's a generalized observation to say that. In truth, she says these things to Horuss, Meenah, and Rufioh; all three large factors that contributed to her troubling years in the game due to the quadrant drama. When she speaks to Rose and Dave, two people who've never done anything to wrong her, she's more so shy. I find this potentially in line to what she was described as being before she snapped by Aranea, that being "meek". She also shows similar attributes when you butt into Kanaya and Porrim's conversation as her.

Rufioh is called the Anti-Cronus by Aranea. Obviously this is due to his romantic success in life, as well as the attraction received from what was apparently every member on the team outside of Meenah. However, the two relate in small categories such as flirtatious natures, self absorbed tendencies, human-esque aesthetics, and pet names. They're almost like two sides of the same coin, but Anti-Cronus gets away with the nice guy act and then doesn't call you back.Who knows, maybe with the contrasting parallels Cronus (hope player) would actually be faithful in a relationship :P Bonus: Rufioh thanking Meenah for defending him from Damara despite them both being the catalyst for her downfall is

Mituna has a few neat things I've noticed. His backstory parallels a lot to Cronus' in terms of self-made prophets that no one took seriously, up until an event that forever changed their personas, all while someone (Kurloz) was absolutely involved. I'm also still wanting to know what his persona was like prior to his sacrifice. Maybe a different shade of fanon Sollux? Meenah and Mituna have the vibe of friends since she seems to respect him and even gets uncomfortable at the idea of making him a helms in another universe.

Kankri wears a belt under his sweater. That's a neat thing to remember. He also is the Signless as well as Signless being him, so I have no reason to believe that he wouldn't also bear his Seer of Blood abilities when it comes to seeing the Signless' life when he was still alive through visions.

Meulin handles red quadrant shipping while Kurloz handles black. Meenah also tried to kill her once during the game. She's very loud, and doesn't display the fanfiction that she writes of her friends until she gets their permission. Which makes me assume that they've all grown use to it at this point to where it's probably seen as normal. A lot of abnormal things would probably be normal to them since all of these trolls grew up without proper social learning during the age of 13 for 6-7 years in human time. That's all I got.

Porrim reveals to us that gender does have a play in troll society. It always has, but she reveals it a little more thorough in regards to its relation to the caste system. How CIPs (Cerulean, Indigo, Purple, Violet) were male dominant caste and made most of the ruling against those that were not, especially in the case of jade bloods who were a female dominant caste and suffer through the oppression that comes with that. ( #Fuschia do+wn matriarchy #Purple do+wn patriarchy). On a lighter note, she also coined the term "dancestors".

For Latula, this song exists. It was never used in anything official for Homestuck, not even an album side song, but it was posted and happens to use Latula's quirk. This could potentially be one of the rare times dancestors could've got more official recognition if things went through with whatever didn't make this track used in the end. In relation to Latula herself, hm. She lost her sense of smell through a chain of revenge, though I wonder if it was Aranea's fault, or Meenah, since one is a Serket while another takes over a lot of Vriska's actual story beats.

Aranea's booth is made of cardboard, according to Hussie. If I went on about the many observations of Aranea we'd be here all day. I'll say that if anything, it's probably good she was more focused on getting the ring of life and taking over another universe than fixating on the tinier elements of her Mindfang kinning. For the sake of the other dancestors. A pitch relationship with Cronus would be terrible.

Horuss...I don't have much to say but. He certainly is horse kin; a lot of people tend to remember that in exchange for not remembering that his happiness is fake, and he's a big ol hemoist behind his smile. If you turned his smile into a frown for most of his dialogue then I feel like more people would get it. Or if they just read Openbound.

Kurloz has a fair amount too. I already mentioned about how he absolutely caused Mituna's accident and destroyed Cronus' belief in magic. Um, he also has a connection to Meulin and Mituna, similar to how Signless has one to Disciple and Psiioniic. I could probably make something out of that. Oh, and he shows up in this flash and nothing is ever built on it and I'm so mad-

Cronus...again. I have too much to say. I linked my video ramble about him in the beginning of this thread. So many things to say on this bastard if you're imaginative enough. Here's something no one remembers; Meenah sold his ring to Hussie in exchange for the same amount of the Homestuck Kickstarter money.

Meenah...second verse same as the first. She's probably the second most important dancestor, right behind Aranea. While Aranea actually did something that directly affected the plot in a large way, to the point of causing change, Meenah's kind of there. She's cool, but if you took away Openbound and the rest of her screen time, barely anything would change about the plot. A observation that's more fun is how she wants to run away from the life of royalty and yet very much wants to be in charge of her friends, an army, etc. This tells me that it wasn't that she didn't want to rule period; she just wanted to do things her own way, and wasn't going to get that on Beforus. Cue HICs eventual everything, from ruling with violence, to not feeling like a glorified slave (until the whole LE bit), to giving everybody this weird habit of wearing black as a fashion choice.

That's all I got, and that's only a fraction of what I think on the usual, desu.

[Flame_Warp]

Damara is seen saying foul, antagonistic (and offensive) things toward people, but it's a generalized observation to say that. In truth, she says these things to Horuss, Meenah, and Rufioh; all three large factors that contributed to her troubling years in the game due to the quadrant drama.

Actually, honestly, she seems to still be on decent terms with Rufioh, which is easy to forget. But actually looking at how she talks to him...sure, she's kind of snippy, but all things considered? They're on speaking terms, she tries to get him to get out of his terrible abusive relationship with Horuss, even offers to help him with it. I mean she fucks with Tinkerbull and initially refuses to get rid of the blockage, but the latter seems more like she's just messing with him considering the fact she relents pretty much immediately.

[YoItsCro]

Damara is seen saying foul, antagonistic (and offensive) things toward people, but it's a generalized observation to say that. In truth, she says these things to Horuss, Meenah, and Rufioh; all three large factors that contributed to her troubling years in the game due to the quadrant drama.

Actually, honestly, she seems to still be on decent terms with Rufioh, which is easy to forget. But actually looking at how she talks to him...sure, she's kind of snippy, but all things considered? They're on speaking terms, she tries to get him to get out of his terrible abusive relationship with Horuss, even offers to help him with it. I mean she fucks with Tinkerbull and initially refuses to get rid of the blockage, but the latter seems more like she's just messing with him considering the fact she relents pretty much immediately.

She isn't as bad to him as she is to Horuss and Meenah, but the tension is still there, especially in some comments. It's all just a four person dynamic of uncomfortable. Plus she still has that difference between how she talks to others versus them that feels especially purposeful to include.

[Flame_Warp]

True, but keep in mind there's also the fact of masks and all that. Damara hides herself around the other beforans with a language gap, and it's not difficult to say she may be hiding herself (at least somewhat) around the humans with the broken english and kindly demeanor, whether that's because she's just trying to make a good impression or actively wants them to see her as harmless for one reason or another is somewhat difficult to know.

IMO, "Actual" Damara is probably somewhere in the middle, y'know. Still crass, but not so focused on constantly making comments while the other kind of talks over her. Which is pretty much how she is with Rufioh, so. Who knows.

[Cheshire_Creeper]

I think the Dancestors are pretty good to think about, but what's an even fun-er (that's totally a real word, shut up) to think about is what would the Dancestor's...ancestors would be like. Like, I mean, Doc Scratch wasn't around in the days of Beforus, so all the events attributed to his influence wouldn't have happened to our Main Cast of Characters, Right? What's Gamzee in Beforus, without the subtle influence of LE? What about Vriska or Kanaya in Beforian Culture?

[KanayaMaryam]

I would have absolutely loved more content about the Dancestors, because getting a glimpse into a troll society that's basically reverse Alternia would have been profoundly interesting in my opinion. How has this upbringing affected the alpha trolls? How did this universe become this way? Why? So many questions, but not a lot of answers that I can recall. It's been a while since I read Homestuck in it's entirety, but the Dancestors and Ancestors have always been a large plot string that's been in my mind.

As for the actual Dancestors, Damara and Porrim are two of my favourites. Damara because from what I remember, she went through a hell of a lot and ultimately just. Stopped caring. Her and Cronus' comic from Paradox Space (was it Paradox Space?) is still one of the creepiest and most unsettling Homestuck comic I've ever read, and I feel like it gave this hidden glimpse into her as a character, even though it was an 'AU' style view.

As for Porrim, I adore her character design (if I could have those tattoos, I would) and just generally like her. She seems mostly level-headed throughout it all, and mainly trying to make the best out of a pretty shitty situation. Obviously there are some clashes, but she seems like the only 'grown-up' character out of all of them. Everyone else somehow got stuck behind in the past, while she's trying to continue in some way. Not sure if that makes sense. Anyway, apart from that I really enjoy how her conversations allowed us to glimpse into how Beforus wasn't this utopian planet of peace and love and respect. Injustices still happened, and she was personally affected by them.

Anyway, weird ramble over.

[VASKA]

I actually loathed Damara's paradox space comic, but probably only because it was an adaptation (wouldn't even say "parody", too serious) of my least favorite chapter (installment? iteration?) of Tomie.

[YoItsCro]

Now that it's coming into memory, we were absolutely robbed of having more than one dancestor comic for Paradox Space.

I have mixed feelings about Damara, the story in Paradox Space, especially with it being the only focal dancestor rep in that entire line up. Though one of the most interesting glares is that while perhaps unintentional (and isn't how inconsistent cronus' quirk is), the comic reminds me of how the dancestors had their own calender art* once featuring them in a japanese classroom. With such a slim line up of fanfare for fans to dig at outside of the comic, leaves me wanting more, and especially in variety; I also want a comic that isn't just a parody versus something that could've toyed with the universe like the vast other comics, such as showing us more of how the dream bubbles work, or how BEFORUS worked.

*speaking of calenders and a slim fanfare, there was a calender from FFBF that was suppose to be troll editioned. Yes, there were no dancestors whats so ever.

[Sahxyel]

I would have absolutely loved more content about the Dancestors, because getting a glimpse into a troll society that's basically reverse Alternia would have been profoundly interesting in my opinion. How has this upbringing affected the alpha trolls? How did this universe become this way? Why? So many questions, but not a lot of answers that I can recall. It's been a while since I read Homestuck in it's entirety, but the Dancestors and Ancestors have always been a large plot string that's been in my mind.

I really would like a better peek into what Feferi did wrong, the whole situation of Beforus feels like a setup for a reason why ultimately Feferi needed to die and stay dead to prevent her influence over trolls as Heiress in the new Universe but that isn't really extrapolated on aside how overbearingly stifling the responsibilities of the higher caste looking over the lowers ones were, to the point Meenah ran away to live on the moon.

[VASKA]

I would have absolutely loved more content about the Dancestors, because getting a glimpse into a troll society that's basically reverse Alternia would have been profoundly interesting in my opinion. How has this upbringing affected the alpha trolls? How did this universe become this way? Why? So many questions, but not a lot of answers that I can recall. It's been a while since I read Homestuck in it's entirety, but the Dancestors and Ancestors have always been a large plot string that's been in my mind.

I really would like a better peek into what Feferi did wrong, the whole situation of Beforus feels like a setup for a reason why ultimately Feferi needed to die and stay dead to prevent her influence over trolls as Heiress in the new Universe but that isn't really extrapolated on aside how overbearingly stifling the responsibilities of the higher caste looking over the lowers ones were, to the point Meenah ran away to live on the moon.

Feferi is an interesting one, and I think the comic implies pretty well why she "failed" as an empress. Quite simply, she's shortsighted and hypocritical.

why is she shortsighted? because she upholds the hemospectrum. Hussie is clear in his old forum posts (rip OGMSPAF) that the hemospectrum parallels real-world prejudice (i think it does so poorly, but thats a different topic. Now, Feferi wants to stop the violence on Alternia, but she implicitly loves caste. At no point does she address the actual underlying structural issues with a caste system, and we see that on Beforus she actually upheld caste directly, just in a 'softer' way. So she has a utopian vision where the thing that made everything awful still exists, but its negative repercussions dont. its natural, of course, seeing as her authority is derived from her high caste.

How is she a hypocrite? well, she opposes the violence on alternia, and has a very simple morality: murder bad, kindness good. But she makes excuses to work around that morality. Feferi sends Eridan to kill lusii to feed gl'bgolyb, justifying her own use of violence as "the greater good". we see this more blatantly in murderstuck, where she sics sollux on eridan and then attacks him herself. Meenah even mentions Feferi is violent towards her on account of their blood! Now, do i think these are justified, or at least forgiveable, uses of violence? sure. but they conflict with feferi's simple morality, turning "killing is wrong" into "killing is wrong, unless i say otherwise". Not the image of a good leader.