Unpopular Opinions Thread

[nonsenseMnemonic]

I really didn't see any evidence that the Epilogue's content warnings were supposed to be making fun of content warnings/being disingenuous or misleading. I think it was V that said the Epilogue content warnings were poking fun, specifically, at AO3's tagging system which would, in fact, mix things like "the economy" and "Barack Obama" with more serious tags such as "violence" or "depictions of suicide."

Same difference imo. The CWs are a bunch of legitimate warnings next to a bunch of jokes and I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to assume either that none of them should be taken seriously, or that some are sorta legitimate without grasping that this story contains like.. actual, detailed, drawn-out suicide scenes. Obviously you don't need to actually write "long suicide scene featuring characters you love" but c'mon there's gotta be an in-between to strive for. What we got wasn't adequate.
I also really don't think familiarity with AO3's tagging etiquette should be necessary for people to understand that the story contains legitimately upsetting content and that the CWs aren't just a joke about CWs. It's reasonable to not take the serious CWs seriously when they're presented next to jokes.

[MorganMustDie]

I also really don't think familiarity with AO3's tagging etiquette should be necessary for people to understand that the story contains legitimately upsetting content and that the CWs aren't just a joke about CWs. It's reasonable to not take the serious CWs seriously when they're presented next to jokes.

I'm not saying a familiarity is necessary, but at least in the week between the content warnings' release and the story itself, they were very forthright about "everything in the content warnings is seriously something that will happen, so be ready for that."
The content warnings would only be a joke if they didn't appear in the story, and they do. You'd need to assume that Hussie is a legitimately cruel person to say "there's suicide in this" and then not put it in. If you read a content warning that says there is suicide in something, and that that is something that would trouble or harm you to read, then you shouldn't read it. I can't think of any kind of person who would a) require a content warning, and then b) READ a content warning and say "ah, they're probably only joking" and continue reading.
It's also not like it would come as a surprise, to reach the epilogues you actually need to have read homestuck, which contains a much more gruesome suicide scene actually displayed with visuals (dirk's teleport decapitation) than the epilogues contained

[TrickleJest]

Also this will likely be very controversial but tagging your “content warnings” before every scene occurs in such an overt way (without at least putting them in a clickable spoiler with the words CONTENT WARNING above them so that they can, if need be, ignored) basically ruins any semblance of subversion or subversive technique when it’s painfully clear the subject matter will focus on the shit that you’re warned about

Wait, sorry, what specifically is this referring to re: Homestuck?
The CWs for the Epilogues were at the beginning of the story, and were presented as jokes and not serious warnings, and in Pesterquest I only remember them being explicitly mentioned once in-story, as a joke. The CW tab there is easy to just.. not look at. I don't look at it.
Am I missing something?

Homestuck^2 (before chapter 1) is what I was referring to, sorry for the confusion.

[nonsenseMnemonic]

Homestuck^1 (before chapter 1) is what I was referring to, sorry for the confusion.

desu i think you might need to link it for me but thank you for clarifying!

-

I'm not saying a familiarity is necessary, but at least in the week between the content warnings' release and the story itself, they were very forthright about "everything in the content warnings is seriously something that will happen, so be ready for that."
The content warnings would only be a joke if they didn't appear in the story, and they do. You'd need to assume that Hussie is a legitimately cruel person to say "there's suicide in this" and then not put it in. If you read a content warning that says there is suicide in something, and that that is something that would trouble or harm you to read, then you shouldn't read it. I can't think of any kind of person who would a) require a content warning, and then b) READ a content warning and say "ah, they're probably only joking" and continue reading.
It's also not like it would come as a surprise, to reach the epilogues you actually need to have read homestuck, which contains a much more gruesome suicide scene actually displayed with visuals (dirk's teleport decapitation) than the epilogues contained

Familiarity with the authors' social media posts a week before the Epilogues is also something I don't really think should be necessary to know, but
I'm not sure it makes sense to define them as jokes only if they don't appear in the story, because you can make jokes about things that do actually happen ? It feels silly to me to look at CWs for Rapping and The Economy and Early 20th Century Dance Movements and say "these are serious content warnings for serious content, and are not written in jest." Which is what I'm talking about when I say it's reasonable to look at that, and look at the CWs for actual sensitive content, and interpret them less seriously than you would if they were not presented in such a lighthearted context.
I'm not someone who was personally upset by any of the CW-worthy Epilogues content, but I've spoken to people who were, and who did not think the content warnings were sufficient -- and I agree with them that I don't think they were successful as content warnings. I don't think any of the authors were malicious here, or that there was any ill intent, but I do think they could have done a better job at getting across that, yeah, this stuff happens in detail. I would've been satisfied with an additional sentence in the summary with something like "This story contains descriptions of yadda yadda yadda," or really just a separation between tags and content warnings (a distinction that AO3 does make). Like, it's not the end of the world, and honestly probably isn't worth the amount of words we've dedicated to it, but I do think it could've been improved.
I also don't think visuals = upsetting re: Dirk's suicide in Homestuck. Because suicide is something that generally starts with more internal ruminating than external action, words and written descriptions of suicide and suicidal ideation have the potential to be more upsetting than a kinda cartoony visual. I don't think they're the same.

[TrickleJest]

Homestuck^1 (before chapter 1) is what I was referring to, sorry for the confusion.

desu i think you might need to link it for me but thank you for clarifying!

-

I'm not saying a familiarity is necessary, but at least in the week between the content warnings' release and the story itself, they were very forthright about "everything in the content warnings is seriously something that will happen, so be ready for that."
The content warnings would only be a joke if they didn't appear in the story, and they do. You'd need to assume that Hussie is a legitimately cruel person to say "there's suicide in this" and then not put it in. If you read a content warning that says there is suicide in something, and that that is something that would trouble or harm you to read, then you shouldn't read it. I can't think of any kind of person who would a) require a content warning, and then b) READ a content warning and say "ah, they're probably only joking" and continue reading.
It's also not like it would come as a surprise, to reach the epilogues you actually need to have read homestuck, which contains a much more gruesome suicide scene actually displayed with visuals (dirk's teleport decapitation) than the epilogues contained

Familiarity with the authors' social media posts a week before the Epilogues is also something I don't really think should be necessary to know, but
I'm not sure it makes sense to define them as jokes only if they don't appear in the story, because you can make jokes about things that do actually happen ? It feels silly to me to look at CWs for Rapping and The Economy and Early 20th Century Dance Movements and say "these are serious content warnings for serious content, and are not written in jest." Which is what I'm talking about when I say it's reasonable to look at that, and look at the CWs for actual sensitive content, and interpret them less seriously than you would if they were not presented in such a lighthearted context.
I'm not someone who was personally upset by any of the CW-worthy Epilogues content, but I've spoken to people who were, and who did not think the content warnings were sufficient -- and I agree with them that I don't think they were successful as content warnings. I don't think any of the authors were malicious here, or that there was any ill intent, but I do think they could have done a better job at getting across that, yeah, this stuff happens in detail. I would've been satisfied with an additional sentence in the summary with something like "This story contains descriptions of yadda yadda yadda," or really just a separation between tags and content warnings (a distinction that AO3 does make). Like, it's not the end of the world, and honestly probably isn't worth the amount of words we've dedicated to it, but I do think it could've been improved.
I also don't think visuals = upsetting re: Dirk's suicide in Homestuck. Because suicide is something that generally starts with more internal ruminating than external action, words and written descriptions of suicide and suicidal ideation have the potential to be more upsetting than a kinda cartoony visual. I don't think they're the same.

Sorry, bluh, Homestuck^2, not 1. My bad. Here’s the link: https://homestuck2.com/story/33

[apocalypseArisen]

I don't like Tavros as a character and I think the way the fandom woobifies him makes him even worse and as a disabled person I find it insulting and infantilizing that people treat him like an "uwu softboi" when he is, right there in canon, more than a bit of an ass and kind of creepy in an awkward incel kind of way.

See: Killing Jade's grandpa using her dog, telling her this, going on and oooon about how sorry :( :( he is, how he feels so bad but it wasn't HIS fault because Alternia social norms etc etc etc, and oh hey you're cute want to go on a date? All in the space of a conversation that would have taken place over the course of about ten minutes and before she's even had a chance to process her emotions he lays into the guilt tripping when she rejects him.

And the latest pesterquest just cemented my dislike of him. I appreciate that he's popular (mostly to be shipped with Gamzee) and that's fine but I just really dislike the character.

I think what gets me the most is that he has a lot of potential to be a cool and interesting character but just... doesn't. He talks a big game about becoming a better person and living up to his potential and yadda yadda yadda but he never does. Hell, even his Big Defining Moment of gathering the ghosts to face Lord English could have a) been achieved by anyone. Feferi, for instance and b) got literally walked all over by Meenah a few pages later.

He never achieves anything, and never tries to get better, and just sits there wallowing in self pity for the entirety of his screentime.

[egg]

I don't like Tavros as a character

Admittedly, I care very little for Tavros either. However, I also dislike the way the narrative treats him. I generally think Hussie ragging on him (and Jake, for that matter) in the book commentary is some sort of joke, but I've always wondered a little bit if he also just hated the character. When he's not being a failure in several ways, the comic's just using him as a way to propel Vriska into even more dastardly heights. When he achieves something of importance (ghost army), not only is it mostly useless, it's also not that big of a deal for the reasons you stated in your post. I haven't read the Pesterquest route yet, and I was hoping it'd give his character something worthy of rooting for, but it seems that's not the case. It honestly sucks to me that even though there are many implications and direct statements that Pages are meant to achieve great power when they realize, this never happens in an organic fashion. It feels almost to me like Tavros or Jake are narratively stuck to always being in their 'early stage', so to say, that they can never grow as people and become something better. It makes me a little bitter. I hope Homestuck^2 proves this wrong with Jake, at least.

[BrobyDDark]

I hope Jake does something eventually.

Knowing him that something will be choking to death, but with any luck it'll finally be cutting Dirk from his life like holy shit.

[calamityCons]

I think it’s really awful that homestuck repeatedly villainizes and shits on male romantic partners who experience domestic abuse. They’re ultimately villified for being victims of a narcissist and authoritarian partner and portrayed as bad or annoying people who deserve nothing and that it’s their own fault they’re being abused. As an abuse survivor this is probably my least favorite part of homestuck.

[BrobyDDark]

Whenever Homestuck tries to tackle any real serious issue it comes across as insulting. Hm? What? This character has been abused on all sides for years? Lmao it's fine they're just Jake or Tavros. A character is actively killing others? Haha funny meme comic vriska did nothing wrong.

Lets face it- Homestuck is not the story for real world issues. It was just a funny meme comic for awhile that didn't ever truly discuss issues such as murder, abuse, rape, etc.

[nonsenseMnemonic]

Sorry, bluh, Homestuck^2, not 1. My bad. Here’s the link: https://homestuck2.com/story/33

thank you! i didn't remember that at all haha. Yeah I do think CWs are important but I think my preference is to have them for the work as a whole instead of just for specific chapters, especially for something like HS^2, which is a linear ongoing story where I'm not expecting to be able to skip chapters and still understand everything in full. At least they're trying tho

[rookie1978]

Whenever Homestuck tries to tackle any real serious issue it comes across as insulting. Hm? What? This character has been abused on all sides for years? Lmao it's fine they're just Jake or Tavros. A character is actively killing others? Haha funny meme comic vriska did nothing wrong.

Lets face it- Homestuck is not the story for real world issues. It was just a funny meme comic for awhile that didn't ever truly discuss issues such as murder, abuse, rape, etc.

It wasn't ever supposed to get serious. Act 6 is where the 'things are real and bad now' started, the epilogues cemented them, and homestuck 2 embraces them. From the start of Homestuck 1 we've done a COMPLETE 180 fucking flip flop.

[Morphimus]

I know the conversation has moved past this at this particular topic at this point, but I just read through this whole thread and I got words to say.

...I can't reasonably believe that the characters I've known for ten years were actually trans this whole time and it just comes off as extremely forced and hurtful to the character...

"I can't reasonably believe that the son I've known for 20 years was actually trans this whole time and this seems extremely forced and hurtful to your character" is almost verbatim what my mom said when I came out as a trans woman. So, call it lazy writing, or forced representation if you want(there is some validity to those criticisms), but there's actually a certain degree of realism in a character seeming to "just suddenly be trans," despite not showing any signs that most people would notice.
I guess that's my hot take here.

... I never really saw these particular characters as Trans. In my opinion, Roxy has always been the most feminine character of Homestuck (trolls and humans included). Everything about her screamed femininity. Of all the characters, male, female, nonbinary, Roxy has always seemed to be the most feminine and the least likely to be trans.

At the opposite of the spectrum, John was always the most masculine of the humans. He was always the straight, clean cut heterosexual that was completely comfortable being male...

This sounds almost exactly like things people have said, or could say about some of my closest IRL friends. For real, if you think someone "couldn't be trans because of how masculine/feminine they are" then you're just setting yourself up to be surprised and confused if they ever do come out. I know from experience. And I know the situation is a little different between fictional characters and real life people, but there are definitely parallels.

Additionally:

• If you wanna headcanon a character as cisgender, you imagine them as cis, etc., that's totally fine. Seriously, no joke. You are absolutely allowed to view any character you want as cis.
• No one should ever try to force their interpretation of a character on you. Even if their interpretation is more fashionable at the moment.
• If you think that how the writers handled already established characters coming out as trans poorly, that's a valid criticism, but I personally don't think "coming out of nowhere" is as much of an issue as most people seem to think.
• But also, a character coming out as trans doesn't somehow take that character away from you. They're still there. Different than you're used to seeing them? Sure. And I understand how seeing a character change (in any way) can be uncomfortable, especially if it's a character you relate to. But it's not like the character up and vanished just because they're using different pronouns now, or because it's suddenly really popular for fanworks to interpret them as trans, etc.

[BrobyDDark]

-snorp-

There's a major difference between someone irl not being able to understand or see that someone was trans than there is that a character in a comic or book showing know signs of being trans.

In reality, we have no insight into the thoughts or struggles of the people in our lives unless they tell us. We don't know whether they suffer from dysphoria or not. That's why it can come as a shock when someone seemingly out of nowhere comes out as trans.

In most works of fiction, Homestuck included, we were invited into these characters headspaces and saw their thoughts and struggles. Roxy transitioning feels and IS out of nowhere because there's no lead-up, we don't see their thought process, we don't know when they began feeling dysphoric.

It feels half-assed, and that's one of the worst things you can do when representing minorities in media. Half-assing it. The other worst thing you can do is to force it, which Roxy transitioning also feels. Just like every other bit of the Epilogues discussing sexuality and gender. These things need to be naturally and slowly eased into a body of fiction, if they weren't there to begin with, ya dig?

[dualfallen]

...I can't reasonably believe that the characters I've known for ten years were actually trans this whole time and it just comes off as extremely forced and hurtful to the character...

"I can't reasonably believe that the son I've known for 20 years was actually trans this whole time and this seems extremely forced and hurtful to your character" is almost verbatim what my mom said when I came out as a trans woman. So, call it lazy writing, or forced representation if you want(there is some validity to those criticisms), but there's actually a certain degree of realism in a character seeming to "just suddenly be trans," despite not showing any signs that most people would notice.
I guess that's my hot take here.

Just to get this out of the way: I mean the following in the most objective way possible.
I have no problem with trans people but I do have a justified issue with pandering.

I know that people can be trans for a long time without showing any visible signs and that's all fine and good and if that was the only thing to consider, perhaps then I'd be more receptive to what's taking place. I'm not allowed to get into specifics, but for certain reasons I believe 100% that this is merely happening for representation's sake. That is absolutely not ok and comes off as extremely heavy-handed and controlling. Imagine if some of your friends who are perfectly comfortable with their gender were suddenly forced to transition because trans people are a minority and this was only done to "raise awareness".

What they are doing shows their complete disregard and disrespect for their characters in favor of their own biases and desires and I could never stand behind that.

[galileanTactician]

...I can't reasonably believe that the characters I've known for ten years were actually trans this whole time and it just comes off as extremely forced and hurtful to the character...

"I can't reasonably believe that the son I've known for 20 years was actually trans this whole time and this seems extremely forced and hurtful to your character" is almost verbatim what my mom said when I came out as a trans woman. So, call it lazy writing, or forced representation if you want(there is some validity to those criticisms), but there's actually a certain degree of realism in a character seeming to "just suddenly be trans," despite not showing any signs that most people would notice.
I guess that's my hot take here.

Just to get this out of the way: I mean the following in the most objective way possible.
I have no problem with trans people but I do have a justified issue with pandering.

I know that people can be trans for a long time without showing any visible signs and that's all fine and good and if that was the only thing to consider, perhaps then I'd be more receptive to what's taking place. I'm not allowed to get into specifics, but for certain reasons I believe 100% that this is merely happening for representation's sake. That is absolutely not ok and comes off as extremely heavy-handed and controlling. Imagine if some of your friends who are perfectly comfortable with their gender were suddenly forced to transition because trans people are a minority and this was only done to "raise awareness".

What they are doing shows their complete disregard and disrespect for their characters in favor of their own biases and desires and I could never stand behind that.

This. It's okay to put down characters as Transgender, Nonbinary, Etc as long as it's not handled with the same quality as a token insert character. This is why there should just be an established set of canon characteristics regarding characters so that people have no excuse to do the things that the new writers pull, especially with things like June Egbert and Trans Roxy being as haphazardly inserted into the story as they are.

[JakeMorph]

you really fucking think a CHARACTER being made transgender so that part of the characters audience feels more represented is the same as a real person being "forced to become transgender"?? lol???

[thorondraco]

you really fucking think a CHARACTER being made transgender so that part of the characters audience feels more represented is the same as a real person being "forced to become transgender"?? lol???

On a creative standpoint a lot can go wrong with randomly giving a character a trait. If it doesn't mesh with their characterization or is a major retcon to their past, it can really confuse the audience and make them iffy even if it isn't stuff as emotionally and political charged and gender politics. Roxie... i think the idea works with roxie but the execution is mixed because they used the reveal as a means of showing that Dirk has no power over Roxie at all. Double reveal combo but it kinda floundered a bit.

Of course comparing it to turning a normal person transgender is pretty out there and that specific statement is normally something only said by crazed conspiracy theorists desperately trying to avoid the Gay frog water and consuming copious amount of alternative medicine capsules while possibly tripping ballz from said capsules thinking it is reverting the gay water's effect on their body.

[thorondraco]

Unpopular opinion, i want Alex jones in my homestuck with his psychosis dialed up to 21.

[galileanTactician]

Unpopular opinion, i want Alex jones in my homestuck with his psychosis dialed up to 21.

I DONT LIKE EM PUTTING CHEMICALS IN THE WATER TO TURN THE FREAKIN UNIVERSE FROGS GAY!

GRR GRR GRR CRAP!