Unpopular Opinions Thread

[BrobyDDark]

Unpopular opinion, i want Alex jones in my homestuck with his psychosis dialed up to 21.

That would give "they're puttin chemicals in the water to turn the frickin' frogs gay" a whole new meaning

Fuckin' ninja'd lmao

[thorondraco]

Unpopular opinion, i want Alex jones in my homestuck with his psychosis dialed up to 21.

That would give "they're puttin chemicals in the water to turn the frickin' frogs gay" a whole new meaning

Fuckin' ninja'd lmao

what if that is what Dirk is planning on doing? Or some equivalent.

[BrobyDDark]

Unpopular opinion, i want Alex jones in my homestuck with his psychosis dialed up to 21.

That would give "they're puttin chemicals in the water to turn the frickin' frogs gay" a whole new meaning

Fuckin' ninja'd lmao

what if that is what Dirk is planning on doing? Or some equivalent.

Ngl that'd be peak Hussie. Have a SBURB session just to create an all-inclusive universe.

[calamityCons]

You guys realize this is actually not the first time characters have been given queer identities in spite of never indicating as such beforehand? In fact, to use Alex Jones, the frogs have already turned gay.



I can agree that the method Roxy was revealed as trans was pretty shit. It's essentially just another method to prove how Evil Dirk had become by deliberately misgendering Roxy in the continuity where they came out as nonbinary. June Egbert I have no real opinion on because so far it has made no impact on any new Homestuck content, as Jake in the Candy timeline still refers to them as John, and Pesterquest features a John Egbert rather than a June Egbert.

[BrobyDDark]

You guys realize this is actually not the first time characters have been given queer identities in spite of never indicating as such beforehand? In fact, to use Alex Jones, the frogs have already turned gay.



I can agree that the method Roxy was revealed as trans was pretty shit. It's essentially just another method to prove how Evil Dirk had become by deliberately misgendering Roxy in the continuity where they came out as nonbinary. June Egbert I have no real opinion on because so far it has made no impact on any new Homestuck content, as Jake in the Candy timeline still refers to them as John, and Pesterquest features a John Egbert rather than a June Egbert.

We've seen so little about The Felt compared to everyone else. They're also an alien race with their own disturbingly complex and yet unseen romance system, so the simple "no gay" or "yes gay"/"no cis" or "yes cis" etc system that we have can't exactly be used to compare.

[gutza1]

Okay, to weigh in on the trans stuff:

I know people in real life can suddenly turn out to be trans for no reason, without any signs of that happening otherwise. That's fine, because in real life, things just happen, without any reason. But the Homestuck characters do not live in real life; they are fictional characters. And as an old acquaintance of mine once said, "in Fiction, things don't just happen." Therefore, the writers are obligated to make any character change make sense because otherwise, it's not very good Fiction. It's why Deus Ex Machina is seen as bad-story wise even though Deus Ex Machina-style events happen all the time in real life.

Now, on a more personal note, the reason why all the trans stuff makes me uncomfortable in particular is because I've had to go through similar experiences of people turning out to be trans with no warning and, as a person on the autism spectrum, it's been very hard on me. For years I already thought life was alien and confusing enough and, just when I thought I understood how the world worked, it turned out that it worked completely differently than I imagined it. I think my brain is fundamentally wired in a way that finds random transitions to be very disturbing and off-putting, but I get the feeling that many "normies" think the same way I do, and the relative laxness of most of the people here isn't exactly reflective of the general population. I need order, stability, and reason in a world filled with chaos, uncertainty, and doubt, and Fiction provides that stability. This "gender anarchy," the idea that somebody can just change so drastically for no reason feels very... Lovecraftian and nihilistic to me. Actually, no, it's even worse than Lovecraftian, because many people think that expressing any kind of discomfort at such radical changes or wishing that such changes wouldn't happen is equivalent to full-on transphobia. I guess that makes me sympathize with Epilogue Dirk - all he wants to do is to preserve the Roxy he remembers. That's exactly how I feel. I am Epilogue Dirk.

[calamityCons]

gutza, I feel you re: being autistic and struggling with transitions and changes, but when someone has chosen to reveal or explore a facet of themselves as private and life-changing as gender questions or trans feelings, they're trying to do what they perceive will be best for them. They want to be themselves and express who they are without fear of judgment or rejection. Anyone can want that.

Having difficulty with change is fine. You are allowed to grieve for the person you thought you knew, or take as much time as you need to come to terms with a change that seems so radical. But in real life, the trans people you meet or the queer people you meet are PEOPLE. Their feelings about themselves are the important part, and being upset and sad about it for a small while is fine, but outright rejection of them is an indication that your care for them ends when they surprise you.

Regardless, you have a point that characters having random new attributes placed on them out of nowhere is extremely controversial and seems not to be done very well so far. Characters who can understandably come out as queer in some way, or trans, etc, are easier to swallow. These are fictional characters, they aren't real people. Their coming out so far has not been handled well, but just because Thing A is canon doesn't mean any content where it is Not Canon are invalid.

Take, for example, Rosemary versus Grimdorks. Just because Rosemary exists in canon and they are committed wives and mothers together doesn't mean any content for Grimdorks is attacking it or diminishing it in any way. Likewise, Nonbinary Roxy versus Cisgender Roxy are able to coexist, and the real bullshit surrounding them is Dirk being an asshole to someone he used to love very deeply in canon by misgendering them, deliberately, and maliciously. It's extremely out of character for DIRK of all people to do something like that as he is Queer himself and has many instances of being really nonjudgmental from the evidence I've seen of his character and conduct.

TL;DR: June Egbert and NB Roxy are controversial topics. However, just because these states might be canon doesn't mean fanworks or communities that reject them are not allowed to exist. Also, please be mindful of how you express your care and concern for the people in your life who come out as trans, because it's coming across less as "this is surprising and I need time to adapt to it" and more as "I don't like how you're coming out because it bugs my sense of stability, stop it."

[gutza1]

gutza, I feel you re: being autistic and struggling with transitions and changes, but when someone has chosen to reveal or explore a facet of themselves as private and life-changing as gender questions or trans feelings, they're trying to do what they perceive will be best for them. They want to be themselves and express who they are without fear of judgment or rejection. Anyone can want that.

Having difficulty with change is fine. You are allowed to grieve for the person you thought you knew, or take as much time as you need to come to terms with a change that seems so radical. But in real life, the trans people you meet or the queer people you meet are PEOPLE. Their feelings about themselves are the important part, and being upset and sad about it for a small while is fine, but outright rejection of them is an indication that your care for them ends when they surprise you.

Regardless, you have a point that characters having random new attributes placed on them out of nowhere is extremely controversial and seems not to be done very well so far. Characters who can understandably come out as queer in some way, or trans, etc, are easier to swallow. These are fictional characters, they aren't real people. Their coming out so far has not been handled well, but just because Thing A is canon doesn't mean any content where it is Not Canon are invalid.

Take, for example, Rosemary versus Grimdorks. Just because Rosemary exists in canon and they are committed wives and mothers together doesn't mean any content for Grimdorks is attacking it or diminishing it in any way. Likewise, Nonbinary Roxy versus Cisgender Roxy are able to coexist, and the real bullshit surrounding them is Dirk being an asshole to someone he used to love very deeply in canon by misgendering them, deliberately, and maliciously. It's extremely out of character for DIRK of all people to do something like that as he is Queer himself and has many instances of being really nonjudgmental from the evidence I've seen of his character and conduct.

TL;DR: June Egbert and NB Roxy are controversial topics. However, just because these states might be canon doesn't mean fanworks or communities that reject them are not allowed to exist. Also, please be mindful of how you express your care and concern for the people in your life who come out as trans, because it's coming across less as "this is surprising and I need time to adapt to it" and more as "I don't like how you're coming out because it bugs my sense of stability, stop it."

You're right. I guess I just needed to vent and I dislike how... overwhelming the other side feels it times. It feels like all of the new fan content is geared towards the other side, and my side is actively spit upon by both the writers and the vocal minority of the fanbase.

[MorganMustDie]

For certain reasons I believe 100% that this is merely happening for representation's sake. That is absolutely not ok and comes off as extremely heavy-handed and controlling. Imagine if some of your friends who are perfectly comfortable with their gender were suddenly forced to transition because trans people are a minority and this was only done to "raise awareness".

What they are doing shows their complete disregard and disrespect for their characters in favor of their own biases and desires and I could never stand behind that.

I'm curious: would you, someone with "no issue with trans people," react this way to any inclusion of trans people in Homestuck?

A good chunk of trans people I've spoken to perceive Roxy as more of a commentary on how gender identity issues can change based on your environment and the choices you make (ie one transitions and is happy, one remains the same and is happy). In my eyes, it's a very clever way to explore a new theme that, while it might be out of place, served for a lot more than "pandering."

After all, if it WAS just pandering, you'd think they'd make it a little more concrete, don't you think? "This character is only kinda trans in ONE SPECIFIC TIMELINE" doesn't really scream big time representation to me

[thorondraco]

For certain reasons I believe 100% that this is merely happening for representation's sake. That is absolutely not ok and comes off as extremely heavy-handed and controlling. Imagine if some of your friends who are perfectly comfortable with their gender were suddenly forced to transition because trans people are a minority and this was only done to "raise awareness".

What they are doing shows their complete disregard and disrespect for their characters in favor of their own biases and desires and I could never stand behind that.

I'm curious: would you, someone with "no issue with trans people," react this way to any inclusion of trans people in Homestuck?

A good chunk of trans people I've spoken to perceive Roxy as more of a commentary on how gender identity issues can change based on your environment and the choices you make (ie one transitions and is happy, one remains the same and is happy). In my eyes, it's a very clever way to explore a new theme that, while it might be out of place, served for a lot more than "pandering."

After all, if it WAS just pandering, you'd think they'd make it a little more concrete, don't you think? "This character is only kinda trans in ONE SPECIFIC TIMELINE" doesn't really scream big time representation to me

I do think that if a trait doesn't work with a character it shouldn't be included. Whether because it contradicts with their personality or contradicts with their history. or simply because we already have that trait in other characters. Its why its often better to create a new character if you want to represent a demographic or want to fill up a hole in the cast. Course if you ended up with characters that could easily inherit the trait in question, whatever it is, then give praise to the god or goddess of serendipity and go for it.

Roxie i feel works with the concept but the reveal execution was quite shaky. Also i didn't get the impression that he was exactly happy with his current motif of, well, being he. Mistaken for being Dave seemed to have been increasingly common and considering Roxie is trying to figure out who ROXIE is, a Dave cosplayer is probably not preferable.
Also i feel there was a veiled joke about how Dave would probably look at lot like Roxie if he wore feminine clothing. Know now where Dave and rose alike got their looks from.

But yea that statement he made is a majorly loaded as that is quite literally what some countries accuse Gay and Transgender peeps of doing. Cause scapegoating and oppression.

[JakeMorph]

You're right. I guess I just needed to vent and I dislike how... overwhelming the other side feels it times. It feels like all of the new fan content is geared towards the other side, and my side is actively spit upon by both the writers and the vocal minority of the fanbase.

what exactly is "your side" in this? the side of people who dont want trans people in the comic? how exactly would the writers cater to that side? how many trans characters were there in homestuck prior to 2018?

[Dream Muttman]

I think that's too quick an assumption. I doubt Gutza it straight up against trans characters, as he clarified a couple times that that's not the case. I think a large contingent of fans are interested in Homestuck going back to its roots and dealing with its proprietary issues like "I'm my own father", "My world just died to fuel the creation of a universe", "I think I gave my universe frog son cancer" instead of dealing exclusively in current-zeitgeist identity and relationship issues. Big problems with big solutions and a lighter hand on characters.

Homestuck currently caters to people that want character studies, shipping developments and gender exploration. That's "the other side", I think. People who like that are more likely to be okay with the heavy hand of the authors on the characters than people who want to see the new stuff focus on the characters they loved with no major changes made to them.

[gutza1]

I think that's too quick an assumption. I doubt Gutza it straight up against trans characters, as he clarified a couple times that that's not the case. I think a large contingent of fans are interested in Homestuck going back to its roots and dealing with its proprietary issues like "I'm my own father", "My world just died to fuel the creation of a universe", "I think I gave my universe frog son cancer" instead of dealing exclusively in current-zeitgeist identity and relationship issues. Big problems with big solutions and a lighter hand on characters.

Homestuck currently caters to people that want character studies, shipping developments and gender exploration. That's "the other side", I think. People who like that are more likely to be okay with the heavy hand of the authors on the characters than people who want to see the new stuff focus on the characters they loved with no major changes made to them.

Yes, this exactly what I think. I think that if the authors wanted to explore gender stuff they should have created a new cast of characters where they were designed to be that way from the start.

[classpectanon]

This is not targeted at anyone but just a general warning based on the way that the conversation is going -- this is a "unpopular opinions" thread, not a "transphobia is cool" thread, and if it becomes a "transphobia is cool" thread im gonna lock it.

[arachnidsGrip]

Yes, this exactly what I think. I think that if the authors wanted to explore gender stuff they should have created a new cast of characters where they were designed to be that way from the start.

You really think they should write an entire new story with new characters that might not even be popular just so they can fit in some representation? Homestuck, from what I can tell, already isn't as popular as it once was, and I seriously doubt that's going to change in any meaningful way anytime soon. A new project from the authors, from the way I see it given the lessened popularity, isn't going far. A new story with a new cast JUST so that they can explore gender stuff just seems unnecessary when they already have a well known cast of diverse characters.

[BrobyDDark]

Yes, this exactly what I think. I think that if the authors wanted to explore gender stuff they should have created a new cast of characters where they were designed to be that way from the start.

You really think they should write an entire new story with new characters that might not even be popular just so they can fit in some representation? Homestuck, from what I can tell, already isn't as popular as it once was, and I seriously doubt that's going to change in any meaningful way anytime soon. A new project from the authors, from the way I see it given the lessened popularity, isn't going far. A new story with a new cast JUST so that they can explore gender stuff just seems unnecessary when they already have a well known cast of diverse characters.

The idea is there- rather than risking splitting your base by exploring these ideas who don't properly represent them, or you can't write naturally into the story, make new characters who can. They already made new characters with the Swifer or whatever, and the baby trolls.

[JakeMorph]

what an absurd proposition. every single development made upon a character is going to split some people's opinions. some people didn't like that dirk or jane were made into villains. that doesn't mean the authors should have just "taken the safe route" and made two completely new characters to fill those roles. there's absolutely no reason characters being trans should be any different.

[arachnidsGrip]

what an absurd proposition. every single development made upon a character is going to split some people's opinions. some people didn't like that dirk or jane were made into villains. that doesn't mean the authors should have just "taken the safe route" and made two completely new characters to fill those roles. there's absolutely no reason characters being trans should be any different.

This! You don't need to make a new cast of characters for every topic or scenario you want to explore.

EDIT: And plus haven't they already introduced a new cast of characters like, 6 different times? It's getting old. First the Beta Kids, then the Beta Trolls, then the Alpha Kids, then (kind of) the Alpha Trolls, with The Felt and The Exiles somewhere in there too. There's probably even more I'm forgetting!

[calamityCons]

My unpopular opinion unrelated to the current transphobia discussion because I REALLY want to change the subject:

I find the Exiles and Intermission characters infinitely more engaging and interesting than it seems the majority of people do. I also really appreciated the way the Exiles called back to Problem Sleuth levels of chicanery and goofiness, it is a nice and lighthearted aspect to the comic even when the characters are the Midnight Crew + Felt and slaughtering each other all the time.

[Dream Muttman]

what an absurd proposition. every single development made upon a character is going to split some people's opinions. some people didn't like that dirk or jane were made into villains. that doesn't mean the authors should have just "taken the safe route" and made two completely new characters to fill those roles. there's absolutely no reason characters being trans should be any different.

I personally don't see how that's absurd at all. The whole point is a good chunk of fans are not interested in characters being retooled to be multi-purpose in the current narratives and there's nothing wrong with new characters being introduced. I know it's what I'm hoping for from the HS^2 new session.