Should canon be dencetralized and what is canon?

[thorondraco]

Although this voting system usually works for the SCP Foundation, having Homestuck operate according to similar popularity rules would conflict with a desire to amplify minority voices.

But it only has to be like that because the SCP Foundation has a centralised hosting site. No one's suggesting that they have to host fanworks on the "official" sites.

Decentralized canon but a centralized site. Basically the fandom uses the site as a gathering hub.

[eldomtom2]

Yes, but that's irrelevant to the subject of Homestuck. It's decentralized plenty already.

On an unrelated note, it has occurred to me that canon decentralization is what they're building up to rather than doing at the moment - the Patreon description that no one's read says the plot is about the characters inside the black hole trying to get into the "Fanontinuum". It seems a pretty shit way of doing it, but it does perhaps seem to be too early to accuse them of hypocrisy.

[egg]

I don't think they're hypocrites. I just don't think the strategy they're using right now is all that good.

[thorondraco]

Yes, but that's irrelevant to the subject of Homestuck. It's decentralized plenty already.

On an unrelated note, it has occurred to me that canon decentralization is what they're building up to rather than doing at the moment - the Patreon description that no one's read says the plot is about the characters inside the black hole trying to get into the "Fanontinuum". It seems a pretty shit way of doing it, but it does perhaps seem to be too early to accuse them of hypocrisy.

They are probably talking bout the in universe Meta to begin with. And yes it has in universe meta. So weird.

Essentially we can say in universe the Canon has been decentralized because Both lord english, the force the story is centered around, and the Author, the one who made the story, are both gone. Presumably any other possible assigned author is gone from paradox space if they existed.
Now we have Ultimate selfs, players, who are taking control and fighting for dominance.
With the possiblity that, far as we know, more factions will form in time. We could have an outright WAR going on at some point.

In a weird way we are Seeing a metafictional depiction of a possible worse outcome of decentralizing the fandom. Metaphorical factions forming. Dirk representing a desire to revamp and change things while still keeping a bit of the style, and Calliope representing wanting things to overall remain the exact same as before, whatever the flaws.

[csj]

'Decentralised Canon' is an inherent oxymoron in practise. Decentralisation implies that there are several groups that all contribute to a unitary understanding of narrative truth, but if those groups disagree with each other, what happens? Without a strong binding element between them (which would essentially 'centralise' canon once more), you are likely to see multiple self-sustained canons, which can instead lead to works that are less and less tied to each other, like a fork in software development.

Another analogy would be to examine the larger branches that emerge in 'fanon' works and Alternate Universes; each AU can be thought of as a decentralised node of canonicity which has enough unique content to exist independently on the original work, though not enough to be a truly original work or IP. You could argue that things like the 'Replay Value' AU were popular enough to maintain a following even after it was very clear that official canon was moving in a very different direction. Those kinds of works are the closest Homestuck can really get to being a 'Decentralised Canon' work, unless it follows a more traditional route and licenses Homestuck stuff to several different people to make their own stuff, with limited oversight.

I'm not going to get into the in-universe depiction of 'canon' because it's A: not necessarily meaningful or coherent, B: not something I really have an interest in keeping up with and C: appears to exist entirely independently of the canonicity of Homestuck IPs as a whole.

Moving from a single individual author to a single collective is no more decentralised if that collective acts in unison and works as a whole with limited individual space for movement. Barring a thus-far unseen strategic decision by WhatPumpkin, 'canon decentralisation' can only exist by the whim of fans and the audience.

[melonLord]

Just to toss in my two cents: I think decentralizing/abolishing canon is something that Hussie & co. really...*can't* do, just by the very nature of the project?

Several people have said that the team needs to do more to decentralize it, but, like, they've already officially and openly put canonicity up for grabs, and explicitly labeled the epilogues (and by extension hs2) as "dubiously canon". Just about the only thing left I can think of that they could do at this point is put the property under some kind of creative commons license to make completely sure that HS projects can be safely and legally monetized (idk what the current legal situation is on that) but beyond that, the task of putting canon into the hands of the wider fandom inherently falls to the wider fandom itself. It's not like Hussie can just...make us take it.

In the past i've seen suggestion of things like, putting more user commands in HS2, or featuring certain fanfics on the website, but those aren't decentralizing canon in any real sense, it's just a different means of defining a central Canon (selective curation rather than creation). Hussie deigning to include occasional fan input wouldn't make it any less centralized or under his control. The whole idea is still tied to the concept of "canon" being an incredibly select quality approved by a single creator/authorized group of creators, with all else being secondary. (I.E. the entire thing the HS team is breaking down and critiquing.)

So yeah, as people have pointed out, it's not actually decentralized yet; most of the fandom still revolves around the original Homestuck as its central, immutable spoke, and still operates under the assumption of Hussie = Canon, Everything Else = Not. That's gonna be real difficult (though not impossible, I dont think) to change, and what exactly that reorganization is gonna look like, I got no fuckin idea.

But it is something that Hussie and the rest of the writing team, by the very nature of the beast, can't really do. (Short of like, idk, becoming hermits in the woods and never doing anything even remotely homestuck related ever again. And even then, not really.)

[eldomtom2]

The whole idea is still tied to the concept of "canon" being an incredibly select quality approved by a single creator/authorized group of creators, with all else being secondary. (I.E. the entire thing the HS team is breaking down and critiquing.)

But they're not doing that. They're just making an official continuation of Homestuck that may or may not have something to say about canon in the future.

[Blob55]

Canon should be decentralized because Pesterquest and Hiveswap are much better than anything that's come out of HS^2.

[melonLord]

But they're not doing that. They're just making an official continuation of Homestuck that may or may not have something to say about canon in the future.

The epilogues had quite a bit to say about canonicity and authorship, but true, HS2 itself hasnt delved into those themes yet. Guess I've sort of mentally grouped them as one story, even though they're separate projects.

[eldomtom2]

They still decentralized jack shit.

[Dream Muttman]

I'm fairly certain the attempt at decentralisation already took place. It was Hussie handing off the work of creating content to other people with the clear intention of letting them make it their own. The problem is this wasn't clearly communicated to the audience.

People still think Hussie is pulling the strings in the background, and not enough effort is spent disabusing them of the notion. The writers talking about Hussie's outlines and making comments about the heat death of canon strengthen the idea that canonicity flows from the original author and that that flow is uninterrupted in Homestuck. Not much effort is being made to give the readers a clear approach to the content and its production.

[thorondraco]

I'm fairly certain the attempt at decentralisation already took place. It was Hussie handing off the work of creating content to other people with the clear intention of letting them make it their own. The problem is this wasn't clearly communicated to the audience.

People still think Hussie is pulling the strings in the background, and not enough effort is spent disabusing them of the notion. The writers seem perfectly happy to maintain that illusion, talking about Hussie's outlines and comments about the heat death of canon, when these only strengthen the idea that canonicity flows from the original author and that that flow is uninterrupted in Homestuck.

It is kinda obvious that Hussie is still rather directly working with people on it and the writers themselves have practically admitted as much. Its just they are doing the creative stuff and the overall writing with him just keeping an eye on it.

I think the decentralizing is also metaphorically done in the story. People tend to overlook that with homestuck narrative elements like meta are in fact in universe mechanics. And it seems like the decentralizing is in progress and shown in its more extreme case.

Essentially Hussie, and presumably any other theoretically existing author, are capute, either double dead or in the black hole or candy. Basically the dude who is central to defining canon is gone. And either this has suddenly allowed those with the Ultimate self to gain power, or some kind of default mechanics of the universe that normally makes someone who AWaken to die, failed with Dirk. And then we have Calliope who seems to have also had this awakening and or is hijacking Jade's ultimate self for her purposes.

We now have two people who are now creating their own stories in Homestuck's fiction together in universe, but with the intent of usurping each other and thus breeding conflict. The worst case scenario, basically people trying to fight for being 'canon' and ending up in different factions because of it. Fuck we easily could have more factions pop up and it all escalates into a meta WW1 class scenario. We may even have different motivations on either side for why they are doing it.

Dirk seems to want to ursurp the status quo if i am reading him right. It would explain Rose's loyalty to the plan as she was always against the status quo, and now she has the power to legitimately change it. Calliope wants to preserve the status quo and more so disallow those with power over canon altering things for their own means like Dirk has willingly done.

[Dream Muttman]

Draco the writers are entirely independent beyond their source of funding, especially creatively. Hussie has no direct hand on what they make, has said he doesn't want to have it, and is not involved in the day to day production of either Pesterquest or HS^2. What Pumpkin is a company, not a pseudonym for Hussie himself. I think you have exactly the kind of mistaken perception that I mention in my post.

Edit: He's not involved in Hiveswap Act 2's writing either, as far as anyone knows.

[calamityCons]

It sounds a lot like Hussie wants to distance himself from the future of Homestuck as much as possible.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

Although this voting system usually works for the SCP Foundation, having Homestuck operate according to similar popularity rules would conflict with a desire to amplify minority voices.

But it only has to be like that because the SCP Foundation has a centralised hosting site. No one's suggesting that they have to host fanworks on the "official" sites.

then what the hell is being suggested in the first place

Canon should be decentralized because Pesterquest and Hiveswap are much better than anything that's come out of HS^2.

it's all connected

It sounds a lot like Hussie wants to distance himself from the future of Homestuck as much as possible.

I don't know what you're implying with that.

Hussie has no direct hand on what they make, has said he doesn't want to have it, and is not involved in the day to day production of either Pesterquest or HS^2.

I want to contest that, but first I need to know where you got this information so I can see the exact wording. You're going too far in the other direction, talking as if there is no form of oversight whatsoever.

[thorondraco]

Although this voting system usually works for the SCP Foundation, having Homestuck operate according to similar popularity rules would conflict with a desire to amplify minority voices.

But it only has to be like that because the SCP Foundation has a centralised hosting site. No one's suggesting that they have to host fanworks on the "official" sites.

then what the hell is being suggested in the first place

Canon should be decentralized because Pesterquest and Hiveswap are much better than anything that's come out of HS^2.

it's all connected

It sounds a lot like Hussie wants to distance himself from the future of Homestuck as much as possible.

I don't know what you're implying with that.

Hussie has no direct hand on what they make, has said he doesn't want to have it, and is not involved in the day to day production of either Pesterquest or HS^2.

I want to contest that, but first I need to know where you got this information so I can see the exact wording. You're going too far in the other direction, talking as if there is no form of oversight whatsoever.

Exactly pretty much. He probably acts as an overseer of it even if he isn't doing the direct writing. Make sure they keep things within a very thin layer of reason and that they don't forget something.

People have accused the HS^2 staff of forgetting epilogue stuff but i think we simply misread what was going on in it. specifically that it isn't taking place at the end of Candy but shortly after Vriska arrives. Maybe with some time shenanigans as well, with things being shown out of order.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

I think of it as a digital boardroom meeting, so they have to pitch ideas at each other before they can write the thing they want to write. Even if it's not overseen directly by Hussie all the time, I think it's safe enough to say that there aren't any writers going completely rogue.

[thorondraco]

I think of it as a digital boardroom meeting, so they have to pitch ideas at each other before they can write the thing they want to write. Even if it's not overseen directly by Hussie all the time, I think it's safe enough to say that there aren't any writers going completely rogue.

Which is an unrealistic fear cause, well, Hussie hired em. They could easily be unhired if they abused their influence.. i don't know how tolerant hussie would be. Probably a lot. But he could still unhire them if they become an issue.

He will never unhire someone for twitter opinions and let's face it, no one should be fired for twitter opinions except for a president.

[BrobyDDark]

I don't think people should be fired for twitter opinions period, unless their twitter opinions are what they're hired to give.

What happens on someone's personal twitter is their business, even if it effects their employers or company. If the Wendy's twitter, however, started calling every McDonald's employee and ugly dumpo, and began discussing why Stalin did nothing wrong...then defo fire them for that.

As for the canon... I don't like the approach the authors are taking, as if they're trying to force death of an author. I feel they either need to take a firmer stance on it, or back off from the whole "canon is whatever you make of it" deal. I've never liked Death of an Author. I've always thought that, if people wanted to write something within an author's setting, they're free to, but the opinions of the author, their feelings of their own setting, and what they set as fact, should be acknowledged, not wiped away when convenient.

I think the general audience prefers having a set of rules of the canon to fall back on, and for awhile, Homestuck did have that. There were few things left up to absolute interpretation- Classpects, the clock JuJu, and the terminals. Everything else was solid. Sure, time travel and retconning make it seem less solid, but it was made clear from early on that there was ONE true timeline that the story was following.

I don't really care if the authors decide to decentralize canon or not. Personally, I don't think they will. What I do care about is whether or not they'll keep on with the in-universe meta-ass canon discussion. Not sure I can stand much more of that.

[thorondraco]

I don't think people should be fired for twitter opinions period, unless their twitter opinions are what they're hired to give.

What happens on someone's personal twitter is their business, even if it effects their employers or company. If the Wendy's twitter, however, started calling every McDonald's employee and ugly dumpo, and began discussing why Stalin did nothing wrong...then defo fire them for that.

As for the canon... I don't like the approach the authors are taking, as if they're trying to force death of an author. I feel they either need to take a firmer stance on it, or back off from the whole "canon is whatever you make of it" deal. I've never liked Death of an Author. I've always thought that, if people wanted to write something within an author's setting, they're free to, but the opinions of the author, their feelings of their own setting, and what they set as fact, should be acknowledged, not wiped away when convenient.

I think the general audience prefers having a set of rules of the canon to fall back on, and for awhile, Homestuck did have that. There were few things left up to absolute interpretation- Classpects, the clock JuJu, and the terminals. Everything else was solid. Sure, time travel and retconning make it seem less solid, but it was made clear from early on that there was ONE true timeline that the story was following.

I don't really care if the authors decide to decentralize canon or not. Personally, I don't think they will. What I do care about is whether or not they'll keep on with the in-universe meta-ass canon discussion. Not sure I can stand much more of that.

It arguably still does still follow those rules but they have either become more flexible or are revealing themselves to be more flexible than previously believed. Course defining the rules is the question cause even now we don't know all of them.

i think one of the biggest questions in paradox space is if the rules as defined are that way BECAUSE its the only way it can work, or because someone wrote them that way for arbitrary reasons. If their world is supposed to be data like in structure then it means someone wrote the coding.

Even the candy situation isn't breaking the rules of canon, just bent them. It exists separated from paradox space because of the black hole. But at the same time, it is something that broke the rules and is dangerous because of that violation, for whatever reason, Retcon powers prevent doomed timelines from occurring.


I suddenly think Pesterquest is another Candy situation but without the split timeline being put into a black hole. We are seeing the consequences of it, the damage this split in reality is making because their can only be the Alpha timeline but now there are two. Candy timeline may or may not be potentially worse.

I vote to call the Pesterquest split the FIXFIC timeline.