Homestuck^2 Chapter 5

[ProprietaryPope]

This update just kinda irked me.

When it comes to Dirk Jabs^TM and the accociated author intent I honesty could not care less- to me at least, it seems as though Dirk is written as a conflicted cross between direct author control and the actions that a character would 'naturally' take; thus why you have the subtle jabs from him at Calliope's blunter manipulation of characters on the rare occasion when it happens vs. Dirk's own, ever-so-slightly-more subtle railroading. Trying to ascribe meaning to quotes from him will only ever end up falling into a rabbit hole because there is a seemingly intentional conflict in his narrated, internal behaviour, complete with potentially false irony to allow him to hide any conceivable intent; it's how he bested Calliope's Narrator powers in the epilogues.

What gets me is that I'm finding myself unable to care about Terezi and Rose's choices in this update.

Back in the core of canon, those 'glorious' yesteryears, they were two of my (if not my two) favourite characters; Rose's snarky yet often emotionally honest breakdown of stuff made for a clarifying character, and Terezi is just the best. The epilogues upped the ante as I became very interested in Dirk's manipulation of Rose and how that might come back to bite him in the ass, and gave Terezi an actual, personal quest to undertake, unlike just 'achieving things for the sake of continuing existence and besting Lord English'.

The thing is both of them just seem to be sabotaging their own goals here for nothing in particular. I love me a good bit of Blackrom- when it's a healthy Blackrom, and the characters involved actually draw some benefit from their interactions- but here we have Terezi drawing away from narrative relevance (explicitly stated as the result of the poison that killed John) for a personal dalliance, and Rose ignoring potential progress on the goal she considered (or was manipulated into considering) so important that she was willing to forsake a relationship that was capable of making her happy and helping her as a person. Far be it from me to say it's out of character- this rebellion does make sense, from various perspectives- but I find myself far more interested in the various potential jaunts between those jackanapes on the following ship. Goodness help me, but due to this growing lack of emotional investment that I don't quite understand and haven't explained in the slightest, I find it more interesting to conceive of what creatures Dirk might think would be most suited to properly propagate the next universe via The Game... than pay attention to what were once some of my favourite characters in homestuck.

[eldomtom2]

I am unconvinced that "healthy" blackrom is something that exists, at least not when the parties involved aren't solely trolls.

[Generalrabogolfo]

I am unconvinced that "healthy" blackrom is something that exists, at least not when the parties involved aren't solely trolls.

i mean just look at johnrezi. that sure be what all blackroms should try to go to (even if john felt more of a red thing that black, john and terezi's banter at the end of homestuck proper was one of the best black examples ive seen yet)

[BrobyDDark]

Kismesis' are supposed to keep eachother in check in a rival sort of way, while Auspitizing is meant to keep those rivalries from becoming unhealthy. Its quite literally the most healthy kind of relationship involving harsher emotions like anger and hatred, and why Gamzee and Terezi's kismesis relationship was depicted as unhealthy. They didn't keep eachother in check, they went into a hedonistic frenzy.

[RoyalFiddle]

My point was kinda that 3 perspectives on this issue are all kinda shown in a negative manner (sole character interaction being bad [Alt. Calliope {Candy}], sole game mechanics being bad [Dirk], and not caring being bad [Terezi, presumably Dave]) and that ultimately the answer being both will be presented

[thorondraco]

Kismesis' are supposed to keep eachother in check in a rival sort of way, while Auspitizing is meant to keep those rivalries from becoming unhealthy. Its quite literally the most healthy kind of relationship involving harsher emotions like anger and hatred, and why Gamzee and Terezi's kismesis relationship was depicted as unhealthy. They didn't keep eachother in check, they went into a hedonistic frenzy.

oooo that could mean that Rose and terezi's could spiral too.

[eldomtom2]

KIts quite literally the most healthy kind of relationship involving harsher emotions like anger and hatred

yeah that's saying jack shit

[BrobyDDark]

KIts quite literally the most healthy kind of relationship involving harsher emotions like anger and hatred

yeah that's saying jack shit

Sure does when you remove the front and back parts of the comment, but

The idea is, rather than it being "hatred" and "anger", it is begrudging respect and desire to be better. Gary and Ash, Goku and Krillin (early DB)/Vegeta (Super)/Hit, Naruto and Sasuke (pre Sasuke's raging hormones ruining his life)

But there are levels to it. John and Terezi's relationship isn't built on hatred or anger, but rather teasing and respect. It's healthy as it has nothing to do with fighting, merely debating and discussing, with John getting flustered from Terezi's teasing, and both having enough respect for eachother to not take their light proverbial jabs to heart.

Then there's Sollux and Eridan, two people who hate eachother, but acknowledge eachother as rivals not only in combat, but for the affection of Feferi. As they have Feferi to think about, and the team to think about, they would never kill eachother until...well, Murderstuck.

Then there's relationships where neither has any respect for eachother. Terezi and Gamzee. All they care about is wallowing in their own despair and hate kissing to get out their frustrations with theirselves and eachother.

Auspitizing is meant to keep both parties healthy- like marriage counselling, its meant to bring back the respect rather than allow both parties to wallow in their negative feelings.

Likewise, matespritism isn't necessarily healthy. Feferi and Eridan, for instance, because both parties lacked the actual respect and love for eachother. But when they both love and respect eachother, it is extremely healthy.

Personally, I think Matespritism and Kismesism aren't so different. Rather, Troll society separates them to breed conflict and hatred. Rather, the two should be considered two sides of the same coin. There are couples that would never say anything bad about eachother even jokingly, which can be very healthy. Then there are couples always taking potshots at eachother and still have a very healthy relationship. Maude and Ned Flanders are type one, Homer and Marge Simpson (early seasons) are type two.

[thorondraco]

KIts quite literally the most healthy kind of relationship involving harsher emotions like anger and hatred

yeah that's saying jack shit

Sure does when you remove the front and back parts of the comment, but

The idea is, rather than it being "hatred" and "anger", it is begrudging respect and desire to be better. Gary and Ash, Goku and Krillin (early DB)/Vegeta (Super)/Hit, Naruto and Sasuke (pre Sasuke's raging hormones ruining his life)

But there are levels to it. John and Terezi's relationship isn't built on hatred or anger, but rather teasing and respect. It's healthy as it has nothing to do with fighting, merely debating and discussing, with John getting flustered from Terezi's teasing, and both having enough respect for eachother to not take their light proverbial jabs to heart.

Then there's Sollux and Eridan, two people who hate eachother, but acknowledge eachother as rivals not only in combat, but for the affection of Feferi. As they have Feferi to think about, and the team to think about, they would never kill eachother until...well, Murderstuck.

Then there's relationships where neither has any respect for eachother. Terezi and Gamzee. All they care about is wallowing in their own despair and hate kissing to get out their frustrations with theirselves and eachother.

Auspitizing is meant to keep both parties healthy- like marriage counselling, its meant to bring back the respect rather than allow both parties to wallow in their negative feelings.

Likewise, matespritism isn't necessarily healthy. Feferi and Eridan, for instance, because both parties lacked the actual respect and love for eachother. But when they both love and respect eachother, it is extremely healthy.

Personally, I think Matespritism and Kismesism aren't so different. Rather, Troll society separates them to breed conflict and hatred. Rather, the two should be considered two sides of the same coin. There are couples that would never say anything bad about eachother even jokingly, which can be very healthy. Then there are couples always taking potshots at eachother and still have a very healthy relationship. Maude and Ned Flanders are type one, Homer and Marge Simpson (early seasons) are type two.

Beforus separated them though and it very much wanted to avoid the whole hate and conflict. Think it is simply that trolls are driven to seek out both emotionally compeleting mates and worthy rivals, both of whom they fuck.
Basically it be like if a wild animal competed for a mate, and then fucked both the mate and the rival at the end. Win win. A human having that relationship is unlikely i feel, least not a sexual one. Worthy rival, friendemy.

Also do you think the Chapter 7, next month's second update, might end up just like chapter 5? Largely text on a single page like the epilogues? Or do you think they just cheated a little because of the short month?

[ThePungeonMaster]

But there are levels to it. John and Terezi's relationship isn't built on hatred or anger, but rather teasing and respect. It's healthy as it has nothing to do with fighting, merely debating and discussing, with John getting flustered from Terezi's teasing, and both having enough respect for eachother to not take their light proverbial jabs to heart.

Then there's Sollux and Eridan, two people who hate eachother, but acknowledge eachother as rivals not only in combat, but for the affection of Feferi. As they have Feferi to think about, and the team to think about, they would never kill eachother until...well, Murderstuck.

Then there's relationships where neither has any respect for eachother. Terezi and Gamzee. All they care about is wallowing in their own despair and hate kissing to get out their frustrations with theirselves and eachother.

Auspitizing is meant to keep both parties healthy- like marriage counselling, its meant to bring back the respect rather than allow both parties to wallow in their negative feelings.

Likewise, matespritism isn't necessarily healthy. Feferi and Eridan, for instance, because both parties lacked the actual respect and love for eachother. But when they both love and respect eachother, it is extremely healthy.

Personally, I think Matespritism and Kismesism aren't so different. Rather, Troll society separates them to breed conflict and hatred. Rather, the two should be considered two sides of the same coin. There are couples that would never say anything bad about eachother even jokingly, which can be very healthy. Then there are couples always taking potshots at eachother and still have a very healthy relationship. Maude and Ned Flanders are type one, Homer and Marge Simpson (early seasons) are type two.

That's never really the vibe I got from Kismesisitude. I took it as the kind of catharsis one gets from really hating something, but released in a way that is beneficial to both of those in the relationship. Being able to get out all the things that frustrate you about this person, or about life in general, rather than just bottling it up and instead releasing it in a controlled and satisfying way. What could make a black relationship unhealthy is if the hate goes too far, where one can't even stand the other's presence enough to be in the same room as them without starting a fight, never getting a time to air out their grievances as much as just wanting this person out of their life, hence why loathing isn't conducive to a healthy Kismesisitude, and what auspitism if for. At it's most extreme, it could be compared to the relationship between the Joker and Batman, as the either would lack a sense of fulfillment without the other acting as their foil.

[BrobyDDark]

But there are levels to it. John and Terezi's relationship isn't built on hatred or anger, but rather teasing and respect. It's healthy as it has nothing to do with fighting, merely debating and discussing, with John getting flustered from Terezi's teasing, and both having enough respect for eachother to not take their light proverbial jabs to heart.

Then there's Sollux and Eridan, two people who hate eachother, but acknowledge eachother as rivals not only in combat, but for the affection of Feferi. As they have Feferi to think about, and the team to think about, they would never kill eachother until...well, Murderstuck.

Then there's relationships where neither has any respect for eachother. Terezi and Gamzee. All they care about is wallowing in their own despair and hate kissing to get out their frustrations with theirselves and eachother.

Auspitizing is meant to keep both parties healthy- like marriage counselling, its meant to bring back the respect rather than allow both parties to wallow in their negative feelings.

Likewise, matespritism isn't necessarily healthy. Feferi and Eridan, for instance, because both parties lacked the actual respect and love for eachother. But when they both love and respect eachother, it is extremely healthy.

Personally, I think Matespritism and Kismesism aren't so different. Rather, Troll society separates them to breed conflict and hatred. Rather, the two should be considered two sides of the same coin. There are couples that would never say anything bad about eachother even jokingly, which can be very healthy. Then there are couples always taking potshots at eachother and still have a very healthy relationship. Maude and Ned Flanders are type one, Homer and Marge Simpson (early seasons) are type two.

That's never really the vibe I got from Kismesisitude. I took it as the kind of catharsis one gets from really hating something, but released in a way that is beneficial to both of those in the relationship. Being able to get out all the things that frustrate you about this person, or about life in general, rather than just bottling it up and instead releasing it in a controlled and satisfying way. What could make a black relationship unhealthy is if the hate goes too far, where one can't even stand the other's presence enough to be in the same room as them without starting a fight, never getting a time to air out their grievances as much as just wanting this person out of their life, hence why loathing isn't conducive to a healthy Kismesisitude, and what auspitism if for. At it's most extreme, it could be compared to the relationship between the Joker and Batman, as the either would lack a sense of fulfillment without the other acting as their foil.

Well, that's certainly one type of relationship, but it needs respect to balance it out. John and Terezi never really had much frustration to take out on eachother, but they did enjoy their teasing/flustered relationship quite a bit. And it was capped off with Terezi gingerly hugging him and treating him like an actually good friend, but it was most certainly still a kismesis relationship.

[thorondraco]

A guy tagged as Yuei2 on reddit has brought up a fascinating point after the latest bonus update (god someonme had a fetish for long panels this time around).

A part of why it all feels so different and a bit exhausting is because John's presence and a lack of the sillier characters to help bring levity to the story. John is dead, Jade is possessed, and their progenintors are back on earth c have an old time. In candy john and his progenitors are in a major funk with one corrupted and dangerous. Back in the bonus updates we have Jasprose, whose jasper essence allows her to unleash Rose's sillier (and hornier), side. But we have no character who can be silly. We have no one for Karkat to seeth at, we have no one to cause Dave to go into a impromptu shitty rap session, frustrate Kanaya, and maybe get jade to come out of her possession funk for some silly games.
And we DEFINITELY have no one to bridge the gap of levity in Dirk's part of the story. Not a damn soul. Its why they are so exhausting. No one for Terezi to tease, and no one to frustrate rose to the point she shrieks into a purple pillow. Definitely no one to Disrupt Dirk's more serious shenanigans.

And i feel its in part deliberate. Because we have all the silly characters who help bring out the silliness of other characters absent or even dead. WE have the pairings most likely to have silly conversations and antics separated. The levity is limited cause the character dynamics are disjointed and the classic pairings are scattered across space time, dimensions, and black holes.

We have a little bit of silliness and weirdness still, these are major weirdos down to the last man, woman, or gender neutral human and or alien. But its not the same. The comedic heart is missing because the comedian is absent, dead and who knows who will take their place?

We had a bit more of the islly comedy aspects back in the update that had the Candy Kids and vriska. We have John's brother and his son there... Maybe they both can become the sources of levity to the story once they exit the black hole?

They definitely need to introduce characters and situations to create more levity in my opinion. But i do think this is deliberate on everyone's part, creatively. The Comedian is dead, Long live the Comedian.

[Generalrabogolfo]

The Comedian is dead, Long live the Comedian.

rest in F, comedian.

[thorondraco]

The Comedian is dead, Long live the Comedian.

rest in F, comedian.

May he one day rise again like the jaysus

[pfeffer-29]

Do not lose hope yet! The comedian is both dead and alive till observed.

[thorondraco]

Do not lose hope yet! The comedian is both dead and alive till observed.

the heir of comedy may yet come to us!

[RoyalFiddle]

The Heir of Comedy sounds like a clown and do we really?? want more clowns in Homestuck we just got rid of the last one

[BrobyDDark]

The Heir of Comedy sounds like a clown and do we really?? want more clowns in Homestuck we just got rid of the last one

Clownstuck

[BrobyDDark]

The Heir of Comedy is Jerry Seinfeld

[MorganMustDie]

ay shoutout to Fiddle for completely changing my mind on this chapter with her analysis a few pages back that i can't be assed going back to quote

It's weird because like, in the end I wind up enjoying every chapter we've got so far individually as like, a vignette of stuff that's going on, but I just don't enjoy HS^2 as a whole yet? Each individual chapter is really nicely crafted, with wonderful art, occasionally witty dialogue and some fun game mechanics, but when you attach them all together it just feels, messy. When you're switching around as often as we are there's never any time for stuff to actually happen, and so the story grinds to a bit of a standstill. When I saw that this chapter was the first time we'd get two chapters directly following on from one another I was excited! Maybe the story will progress! But instead of the Sburb stuff that Chapter 4 was leading up to, that was kinda thrown away for a weird shipping scene which came out of nowhere.

HS^2 is like an ancient tapestry depicting an incredible legendary tale where the images all look super amazing but they're out of order and sometimes there's a six pictures of two people talking and then only one picture of those same people fighting dragons or whatever