11/23/19 upd8 thread

[JakeMorph]

I mean personally I'm of the opinion that Jane is right. I understand the story won't present Jane as rational or making the best decisions because of the similarity to real-world oppression, but frankly? Yeah, trolls are literally superhuman murder machines, in some cases borderline immortal, and all jacked up on psychic energy. They're a bad metaphor for actual victimized peoples and if I was in Homestuck world I would've voted for Jane.

i hate to seem confrontational but are you for real? homestuck is like one long example of trolls being perfectly capable of avoiding murder machinosity.

jane barely talks about trolls' violent tendencies either, her angle is that they reproduce at a rate way more efficient and largescale than humans do, that they therefore have a tendency toward becoming the majority, and that they would spiral out of control within a matter of generations!

that's straight up racist slash xenophobic rhetoric, and the fact that her proposed solution is breeding control and... forbidding interspecies marriage? (what would that even accomplish!) is human supremacy. her company specialises in spacecraft (the same spacecraft that have historically been used for interstellar expansion...) and she's worried about trolls covering the planet and using up all the resources? hmm maybe this is just me but i think she might have an agenda that leans toward maybe being on the wrong side of history.

[xeno]

jane barely talks about trolls' violent tendencies either, her angle is that they reproduce at a rate way more efficient and largescale than humans do, that they therefore have a tendency toward becoming the majority, and that they would spiral out of control within a matter of generations!

that's straight up racist slash xenophobic rhetoric, and the fact that her proposed solution is breeding control and... forbidding interspecies marriage? (what would that even accomplish!) is human supremacy.

This. I don't think I need to point out the real-world parallels that this was almost definitely based on, but it's important to note that Jane doesn't (as far as I remember) consider trolls themselves dangerous. She's just a bigoted piece of shit who wants to regulate them. I've seen people argue about how trolls reproducing differently means Jane is being reasonable, but there isn't really any info I've seen that would back up her worries about troll overpopulation.

[thorondraco]

jane barely talks about trolls' violent tendencies either, her angle is that they reproduce at a rate way more efficient and largescale than humans do, that they therefore have a tendency toward becoming the majority, and that they would spiral out of control within a matter of generations!

that's straight up racist slash xenophobic rhetoric, and the fact that her proposed solution is breeding control and... forbidding interspecies marriage? (what would that even accomplish!) is human supremacy.

This. I don't think I need to point out the real-world parallels that this was almost definitely based on, but it's important to note that Jane doesn't (as far as I remember) consider trolls themselves dangerous. She's just a bigoted piece of shit who wants to regulate them. I've seen people argue about how trolls reproducing differently means Jane is being reasonable, but there isn't really any info I've seen that would back that up.

People who say that aren't taking into account the forced reproduction enforced on the trolls. Either fuck or you are dead.

[Wing]

They don't have that on Earth C though, as far as I'm aware. Because it's Earth C. So arguably they wouldn't reproduce as much.

Unless you mean in regards to Alternia in which case yes

[Space]

i'm happy to see earth c again

because it increases the odds of seeing the best troll, Vriska Lalonde, who is the true hero of Homestuck^2: Beyond Canon

[Sahxyel]

jane barely talks about trolls' violent tendencies either, her angle is that they reproduce at a rate way more efficient and largescale than humans do, that they therefore have a tendency toward becoming the majority, and that they would spiral out of control within a matter of generations!

that's straight up racist slash xenophobic rhetoric, and the fact that her proposed solution is breeding control and... forbidding interspecies marriage? (what would that even accomplish!) is human supremacy.

This. I don't think I need to point out the real-world parallels that this was almost definitely based on, but it's important to note that Jane doesn't (as far as I remember) consider trolls themselves dangerous. She's just a bigoted piece of shit who wants to regulate them. I've seen people argue about how trolls reproducing differently means Jane is being reasonable, but there isn't really any info I've seen that would back up her worries about troll overpopulation.

Doesn't Terezi straight up say Jane is right when this is talked about with her?

[thorondraco]

They don't have that on Earth C though, as far as I'm aware. Because it's Earth C. So arguably they wouldn't reproduce as much.

Unless you mean in regards to Alternia in which case yes

Actually no there would be a LOOOOT of babehs initially. Trolls having kids by themselves for the first time. Considering troll lifespans some of them might have been waiting for this day since society began.

Of course we don't know the cycle of reproduction either. Does the mother grub produce eggs equiavelent to the number of pairing detected in the slurry? Or will it just pop out hundreds of thousands immediately?

[furrylatula]

I mean personally I'm of the opinion that Jane is right. I understand the story won't present Jane as rational or making the best decisions because of the similarity to real-world oppression, but frankly? Yeah, trolls are literally superhuman murder machines, in some cases borderline immortal, and all jacked up on psychic energy. They're a bad metaphor for actual victimized peoples and if I was in Homestuck world I would've voted for Jane.

imo it's ridiculous to judge all trolls based on a single planet that was artificially made more violent through doc scratch's meddling. alternia isn't the default state of trolls, beforus is the default state of trolls. trolls lived for 5000 years on earth c before jane appeared and they didn't reorganize themselves into an alternian like social structure, why would they magically start now?

the one thing she's right about is the rate of natural troll reproduction compared to their death rate, but even that's kind of ridiculous because the kids are literal gods with infinite means of production. they can just make more planets if they need more room.

[calamityCons]

Are we all forgetting the goddamn segregation running rampant on Earth C from the credits animation...... is it addressed in the Candy epilogue.................... how much of HS^2 will have to be dragged under the reputation of the controversial homestuck epilogues, oh my god........

when will the carapaces return, i'm dying squirtle

[xeno]

Doesn't Terezi straight up say Jane is right when this is talked about with her?

The closest thing Terezi says is essentially "I guess that makes sense", but then she almost immediately disagrees with Jane's solution.

It's worth noting that "it's either this, or culling" doesn't really make all that much sense, since Beforus turned out fine despite doing neither. There's also the fact that Earth C, unlike Alternia, doesn't require troll reproduction.

[dualfallen]

Doesn't Terezi straight up say Jane is right when this is talked about with her?

It's worth noting that "it's either this, or culling" doesn't really make all that much sense, since Beforus turned out fine despite doing neither.

But Beforus didn't have to manage four different species on the same planet with widely varying speeds of reproduction. The trolls can simply output new children at a way faster rate than humans (not to mention that even the lower blood trolls live for way longer than humans) and without a system in place, humans will absolutely be overwhelmed. It's inevitable.

[RoyalFiddle]

But Beforus didn't have to manage four different species on the same planet with widely varying speeds of reproduction. The trolls can simply output new children at a way faster rate than humans can and without a system in place, humans will absolutely be overwhelmed. It's inevitable.

Overwhelmed??? Dude, their leaders are literally gods with infinite power, there is no overwhelmed. They can make a million and one planets, they aren't beholden to Earth C, and irregardless of the fact that they are entirely post scarcity, Trolls only reproduced so much because it was skate breed or die. It's mucho fuckin presumptuous to think that that same rate of reproduction would suddenly appear when there is no impetus for any of that to happen.

[thorondraco]

But Beforus didn't have to manage four different species on the same planet with widely varying speeds of reproduction. The trolls can simply output new children at a way faster rate than humans can and without a system in place, humans will absolutely be overwhelmed. It's inevitable.

Overwhelmed??? Dude, their leaders are literally gods with infinite power, there is no overwhelmed. They can make a million and one planets, they aren't beholden to Earth C, and irregardless of the fact that they are entirely post scarcity, Trolls only reproduced so much because it was skate breed or die. It's mucho fuckin presumptuous to think that that same rate of reproduction would suddenly appear when there is no impetus for any of that to happen.

There would definitely be a big immediate surg in reproduction i think. Trolls breeding for the first time, producing young with their kismesis and matesprits since the revival of their species. But it could even out over time.

[Leddy]

SO! Good things

I actually really enjoy them making the art look less like they're bloody teens and a little more fitting. It's very high quality compared to our first update. That's promising that's one of the concerns I had with it prior! I actually am happy that it's keeping Candy in relevance, but that's going to be confusing very quickly. I'm so curious as to what they'll be doing with the stories. As someone who deeply disliked the Epilouges, but still read them as something of canon relevance and cares to keep up with the story, I think it's interesting and super bleeding confusing.

I hope we get more moments like BGD just... being BGD ;) meme worthy things like that are good! Humor is good, though I really just... I'm still on the fence, they've not kicked me off one way or the other quite yet.

[dualfallen]

But Beforus didn't have to manage four different species on the same planet with widely varying speeds of reproduction. The trolls can simply output new children at a way faster rate than humans can and without a system in place, humans will absolutely be overwhelmed. It's inevitable.

Overwhelmed??? Dude, their leaders are literally gods with infinite power, there is no overwhelmed. They can make a million and one planets, they aren't beholden to Earth C, and irregardless of the fact that they are entirely post scarcity, Trolls only reproduced so much because it was skate breed or die. It's mucho fuckin presumptuous to think that that same rate of reproduction would suddenly appear when there is no impetus for any of that to happen.

Oh and it's not "mucho fuckin presumptuous" to think that they can just make planets just like that? When has that ever been a thing? Had they discovered other planets, the solution would've been to simply spread out across planets and all would've been fine but that was not once brought up, even by the people trying to defend trolls being entirely free to reproduce.

The mother grub "lays hundreds of thousands of eggs at once". That's how she works. The material is brought to her, mixed together, and then she lays that many troll eggs, many of which will far outlive any human. Biology don't change just because the mother grub's on a different planet, she'll have the same output.

[RoyalFiddle]

Anyway, I feel like I'm in the minority here, but I don't think I've ever disliked any part of Homestuck, and that streak is still going. This is a good upd8, and while it doesn't move the Dirk plot along (what we all want to see) I'm excited to see Candy!Earth C do it's thing.

[JakeMorph]

Oh and it's not "mucho fuckin presumptuous" to think that they can just make planets just like that? When has that ever been a thing? Had they discovered other planets, the solution would've been to simply spread out across planets and all would've been fine but that was not once brought up, even by the people trying to defend trolls being entirely free to reproduce.

actually funnily enough the ultimate alchemisation of worlds and travel to new habitable worlds are major plot points in homestuck and homestuck^2 respectively.

maybe the pro-troll camp aren't bringing that stuff up because the idea that trolls just existing is going to cause an overpopulation problem is complete bullshit in the first place.

[dualfallen]

Oh and it's not "mucho fuckin presumptuous" to think that they can just make planets just like that? When has that ever been a thing? Had they discovered other planets, the solution would've been to simply spread out across planets and all would've been fine but that was not once brought up, even by the people trying to defend trolls being entirely free to reproduce.

actually funnily enough the ultimate alchemisation of worlds and travel to new habitable worlds are major plot points in homestuck and homestuck^2 respectively

Yes that's wonderful. So why wasn't that a plot point in the epilogues then? Why couldn't they have just said "Jane, I recognize your concerns but maybe we could find other planets to offload some of the population onto" but no, that was not a plot point whatsoever. As far as the epilogues are concerned, there is only one usable planet and that's Earth C. In fact, Dirk and pals have to travel for three years to find the next planet they could go to.

So no, there was no "other planet" and that was not an option.

[RoyalFiddle]

...bro, don't disregard canon to try and prove your xenophobic point. They have the ability to make planets, end of story, even if from what we see, it's not brought up. As for it not showing up in the Epilogues, I would like to point out that Candy has several time skips, ranging from weeks to months to even years. The fact of the matter is that there was no real problem there, it was Jane's insanity that started things off, and she only got more insane from there. But, regardless of that, shouldn't all of this go in a thread dedicated to the epilogue, instead of, you know, in a thread dedicated to an update that just came out?

[JakeMorph]

Yes that's wonderful. So why wasn't that a plot point in the epilogues then? Why couldn't they have just said "Jane, I recognize your concerns but maybe we could find other planets to offload some of the population onto" but no, that was not a plot point whatsoever. As far as the epilogues are concerned, there is only one usable planet and that's Earth C. In fact, Dirk and pals have to travel for three years to find the next planet they could go to.

as far as the epilogues are concerned jane is being irrational and evil bro she's literally the only one acting like the overpopulation of the planet is a serious issue. even the "nobody in-text is talking about it!!" argument doesn't support you