I hate the whole "canon discussion" the series has taken

[Khiara]

This isn't to say everyone has to accept it all into their interpretation or reading or whatever, if you want to ignore parts of Homestuck proper I... really don't care. Nobody remembers the entire comic anyway, and if someone wants to, I dunno, have characters that don't say slurs or whatever that's fine.

You've kind of hit onto the "point," I think. Canon is just interpretation. If some random fanfic informs your view of some random character then that's your canon.

Obviously official work is going to have the most weight for the larger community, but it doesn't have to. You can think literally whatever you want about Homestuck and if it's satisfying for you then hell yeah.

especially with the epilogues, because theyre SO divisive within the fandom, there is a very large group of people who is willing to accept your view that the epilogues were bullshit and ignore them wholesale. they produce headcanons, essays, fanart, fanfics, fanventures, fangames, all based on the shared enjoyment of pure og homestuck.

this isn't like declaring 'murderstuck was ooc and bullshit and i refuse to engage with it' where you'd have a hard time finding people willing to accept that as the shared canon (albeit not impossible, look at gamzee stans). you really can just ignore this part of homestuck and keep on like nothing happened

My, my. Thank you so much for reminding me that I should not be obligated to believe to whatever the majority called "official canons".

Sometimes obligation made me sick--especially in a community where I supposed to just have some fun (aside from being respectful to the others).

[MorganMustDie]

Honestly I feel like the canon discussion started humbly. When I first read the epilogues (which I loved, I might add) I felt like all the discussion on canon served as a way to segue into having TWO timelines, both of which were just as important as the other, and both of which played into the greater narrative. Both Meat and Candy have events that tie into the main, alpha timeline. You can't have one without the other. The story following Lord English moves from the Meat world into the Candy world, and then Calliope moves from Candy back to Meat. They're intertwined.

In a series that has such a strong emphasis on only having one proper, alpha timeline, how can you tell a story with two timelines that are just as important and relevant? Make up some cool new meta-theory about what constitutes as canon, and how a timeline can move in and out of being canon, so that you can have a "non-canon" timeline (candy) that is still relevant to the greater story. I think that's really cool.

But then, people didn't like the epilogues. God forbid, something on the internet have an update that a decent chunk of the fandom didn't enjoy. Most pieces of work would just move on, and the fans would just cross their fingers that the next update would be better. I mean hell, that's what most of late-Act 6 homestuck was like when updates were lackluster. But the epilogues, due to it's new focus on "maybe things don't always have to be canon to be real" or whatever was misinterpreted as "maybe things don't have to be canon if you don't want them to be." And I think that kinda sucks.

As such, what was originally a cool vehicle to explore "does something have to be canon to be important?" has turned into "haha if you don't like the update just shut up haha it's not canon you dumbass"
Considering the general internet discussions around canon in other fanbases DO boil down to "it might not be canon, but it's still important to the universe" (ie Star Wars, Star Trek, idk, Lost?) due to the epilogues being received badly by some readers, it was turned into the opposite of discussion. "It might be canon, but that doesn't mean I have to acknowledge it," I think that must be a difficult position to be in as the creator of something.

[Dream Muttman]

But then, people didn't like the epilogues. God forbid, something on the internet have an update that a decent chunk of the fandom didn't enjoy.

The epilogues had 3 years of buildup and were set up as the real ending to Homestuck that Act 7 and the credits failed to be for a lot of people. They wanted closure, as the word epilogue generally implies, not a stealth sequel. It's natural for it to be divisive.

[MorganMustDie]

The epilogues had 3 years of buildup and were set up as the real ending to Homestuck that Act 7 and the credits failed to be for a lot of people. They wanted closure, as the word epilogue generally implies, not a stealth sequel. It's natural for it to be divisive.

Oh yeah no I totally understand WHY people wouldn't like it, I was just kinda using that as a segue into how it was different from other cases of I Dislike This Thing

[thorondraco]

The epilogues had 3 years of buildup and were set up as the real ending to Homestuck that Act 7 and the credits failed to be for a lot of people. They wanted closure, as the word epilogue generally implies, not a stealth sequel. It's natural for it to be divisive.

Oh yeah no I totally understand WHY people wouldn't like it, I was just kinda using that as a segue into how it was different from other cases of I Dislike This Thing

Homestuck's core essence, of many, is subversion.

What better way to subvert an epilogue, than it to be a prologue?

[arachonteur]

What better way to subvert an epilogue, than it to be a prologue?

not having one is an option

[PilotBlackSmith]

Homestuck's core essence, of many, is subversion.

What better way to subvert an epilogue, than it to be a prologue?

if you want to subvert our expectations, subvert them into something that's actually fucking good.

this whole subversion shit was a fucking mistake

[thorondraco]

Homestuck's core essence, of many, is subversion.

What better way to subvert an epilogue, than it to be a prologue?

if you want to subvert our expectations, subvert them into something that's actually fucking good.

this whole subversion shit was a fucking mistake

That is basically saying that homestuck was a mistake as it was subverting shit since page 1.
But to be fair by certain viewpoints that is a valid statement.

[Barraskewda]

That is basically saying that homestuck was a mistake as it was subverting shit since page 1.
But to be fair by certain viewpoints that is a valid statement.

I don't think you read everything he had to say completely. He said that its HOW you subvert the genre. Early homestuck subverted things exceedingly well because there was a clear purpose and intent to do so. The way Post-Canon content does it feels like it's more of a bottom line thing because the main series already did it. It doesn't feel as genuine, or as good.

[paladinnertime]

if you want to subvert our expectations, subvert them into something that's actually fucking good.

this whole subversion shit was a fucking mistake
[/quote]

oh god its star wars again

[pfeffer-29]

The question of canonicity is a fun one to explore. However, the writers aren't interested in exploring it. Metanarratively, canon is anything relevant to the webcomic proper's story: Meat, for leading to Homestuck^2; Candy, for having characters that appear in Meat; and Homestuck^2, for being an official continuation of Homestuck. I have only ever seen the phrase "everything is canon" used to defend these works. The fact remains that they are canon. They were published by Viz Media and What Pumpkin, and are relevant to Homestuck's story. More importantly, they comprise the only timeline that fits these criteria. There are no alternatives with the same level of importance in the fandom.

People don't talk about the fanfictions written alongside the Epilogues and Homestuck^2 nearly as much because they're not official. For all their talk of semi-canonicity, the Epilogues and HS^2 do not acknowledge the existence of fanfiction (or even alternate timelines) save Detective Pony, which wasn't written in an alternate timeline anyway. Everything outside of the black hole is Meat; everything inside is noncanon. All other causalities must, as far as we know, (a) be unable to bring about the birth of Lord English, (b) have no Dirk or a dead Dirk and (c) be under Alt!Calliope's control, because it is implied in the Epilogues that every Dirk who survived long enough to become his Ultimate Self is focused on one thing only: canonicity, and he doesn't have it. This is extremely limiting to fanfiction writers and a pretty horrible decision if the goal was to make everything canon.

And one cannot exactly ignore these works because, again, they're official. Their interpretations of the characters retroactively affect those characters in Homestuck proper, the most obvious example being Roxy. As far as I know, being trans is something one is born with; one's brain doesn't match one's body. Dysphoria may not rear its ugly head for awhile, but it will at some point, and then the choice is whether one tries to ignore it or transitions. Therefore, all versions of Roxy who are not from an AU have dysphoria, but are in various stages of transitioning. Meat Roxy is a guy; Candy Roxy is less sure about her identity but still has dysphoria and might transition later, for all I know; the Roxy in Homestuck proper must be pre-transition. It is impossible, if a fanfiction writer is to follow canon, to write a Roxy who is a cisgender girl. One could, but then one's fanfiction would be in an AU. Perhaps there exist AUs in Homestuck's reality where Roxy was a cis girl and nothing else changed, but the Epilogues^2 have not acknowledged that such stories and interpretations exist or are valid. They haven't acknowledged that anything else exists or is valid.

So until the story makes good on its promise that "everything is canon", the writers' words will ring hollow.

[pfeffer-29]

if you want to subvert our expectations, subvert them into something that's actually fucking good.

this whole subversion shit was a fucking mistake

oh god its star wars again

I've been thinking that too. The Star Wars fandom arguably has the worse divide, but ever since the Epilogues, our fandom has fractured almost irreparably into factions, and the people in charge have done nothing to help. The most vocal on each side of the split are the most extreme because they create controversy, and people upvote controversy (this being why I'm very glad these forums don't have a post-ranking system). We're a lot like the Star Wars fans in that way: on one end, you have the people who vehemently disapprove of the direction the series is taking; on the other, the people who really like it and agree with the decisions the writers have made. These sides fight endlessly, tirelessly. There's no middle ground for some people. Either you're on the right side or you're in the wrong.

This is a really, really bad culture for civilized conversation and I hope we reconcile someday, but in this climate, it ain't happening.

[PilotBlackSmith]

if you want to subvert our expectations, subvert them into something that's actually fucking good.

this whole subversion shit was a fucking mistake

oh god its star wars again

I've been thinking that too. The Star Wars fandom arguably has the worse divide, but ever since the Epilogues, our fandom has fractured almost irreparably into factions, and the people in charge have done nothing to help. The most vocal on each side of the split are the most extreme because they create controversy, and people upvote controversy (this being why I'm very glad these forums don't have a post-ranking system). We're a lot like the Star Wars fans in that way: on one end, you have the people who vehemently disapprove of the direction the series is taking; on the other, the people who really like it and agree with the decisions the writers have made. These sides fight endlessly, tirelessly. There's no middle ground for some people. Either you're on the right side or you're in the wrong.

This is a really, really bad culture for civilized conversation and I hope we reconcile someday, but in this climate, it ain't happening.

Good.

I mean what else is there to do?

[ThePungeonMaster]

oh god its star wars again

I've been thinking that too. The Star Wars fandom arguably has the worse divide, but ever since the Epilogues, our fandom has fractured almost irreparably into factions, and the people in charge have done nothing to help. The most vocal on each side of the split are the most extreme because they create controversy, and people upvote controversy (this being why I'm very glad these forums don't have a post-ranking system). We're a lot like the Star Wars fans in that way: on one end, you have the people who vehemently disapprove of the direction the series is taking; on the other, the people who really like it and agree with the decisions the writers have made. These sides fight endlessly, tirelessly. There's no middle ground for some people. Either you're on the right side or you're in the wrong.

This is a really, really bad culture for civilized conversation and I hope we reconcile someday, but in this climate, it ain't happening.

Good.

No. Bad. Like, legit bad.
Seeing a community split like this is never good. I think that the divide is less extreme in this case, but the facetious "oh lol it's fannon u just shouldn't care if you don't like it" argument they seem to be employing isn't doing much to solve the actual problems people have. And that's especially grating when the authors have gone to great lengths to say that HS2 is going to be molded by the community, and the fix is so comparatively easy due to the small size and tight knit nature of the community.

[PilotBlackSmith]

No. Bad. Like, legit bad.
Seeing a community split like this is never good. I think that the divide is less extreme in this case, but the facetious "oh lol it's fannon u just shouldn't care if you don't like it" argument they seem to be employing isn't doing much to solve the actual problems people have. And that's especially grating when the authors have gone to great lengths to say that HS2 is going to be molded by the community, and the fix is so comparatively easy due to the small size and tight knit nature of the community.

"molded by the community"
"tight knit nature of the community"
oh yeah
haha


this thread wasn't a good idea

[JakeMorph]

pilotblacksmith i can understand still wanting to participate in a conversation about something you might not necessarily like but why are you still in this thread if you don't intend to say anything constructive

[PilotBlackSmith]

pilotblacksmith i can understand still wanting to participate in a conversation about something you might not necessarily like but why are you still in this thread if you don't intend to say anything constructive

yeah you're right I'mma head out

[ThePungeonMaster]

No. Bad. Like, legit bad.
Seeing a community split like this is never good. I think that the divide is less extreme in this case, but the facetious "oh lol it's fannon u just shouldn't care if you don't like it" argument they seem to be employing isn't doing much to solve the actual problems people have. And that's especially grating when the authors have gone to great lengths to say that HS2 is going to be molded by the community, and the fix is so comparatively easy due to the small size and tight knit nature of the community.

"molded by the community"
"tight knit nature of the community"
oh yeah
haha


this thread wasn't a good idea

I will admit I phrased that a bit poorly. When I say "tight knight" I don't mean centralized as much as I mean small. You can tell if somebody on these forums or the reddit is active not by their post count but by how much you recognize the name. Granted it could still stand to be better.
And as for the first point, while the authors say that a story molded by the community is something they will execute upon, there ain't really much evidence that they're actually doing that.

[Sahxyel]

And as for the first point, while the authors say that a story molded by the community is something they will execute upon, there ain't really much evidence that they're actually doing that.

I think that one of the big ironies about 'story molded by the community' is something Homestuck had much better than any follow-up material is doing. Dirk for approximately 2 seconds channeled into the concept with bringing back the command bar, and though we know what command 'came through' we know in a meta-sense that there were plenty of options to choose from but specifically picked the most inflammatory and easily discarded option to return to status quo.

The community created what the Mayor eventually became, his love for cans and the creation of his MAYO-R sash, just like the community pieced together the bones Hussie laid out for them to push together in stupid or elaborate ways. The COMMUNITY named the main kids AND the main trolls! We had the power at the beginning to make small but incredibly significant strides in the story!

And uh...we don't anymore. In fact, we haven't for a long time.

BIZARRELY this is something that continues to be discontinued despite the claims for more community interaction from the fans. You'd think at the very least there would be a Patreon tier that actually let patrons who are supporting the comic and making the continued existence possible submit commands, effectively making them part of the 'team' as much as the story and art elements.

[thorondraco]

And as for the first point, while the authors say that a story molded by the community is something they will execute upon, there ain't really much evidence that they're actually doing that.

I think that one of the big ironies about 'story molded by the community' is something Homestuck had much better than any follow-up material is doing. Dirk for approximately 2 seconds channeled into the concept with bringing back the command bar, and though we know what command 'came through' we know in a meta-sense that there were plenty of options to choose from but specifically picked the most inflammatory and easily discarded option to return to status quo.

The community created what the Mayor eventually became, his love for cans and the creation of his MAYO-R sash, just like the community pieced together the bones Hussie laid out for them to push together in stupid or elaborate ways. The COMMUNITY named the main kids AND the main trolls! We had the power at the beginning to make small but incredibly significant strides in the story!

And uh...we don't anymore. In fact, we haven't for a long time.

BIZARRELY this is something that continues to be discontinued despite the claims for more community interaction from the fans. You'd think at the very least there would be a Patreon tier that actually let patrons who are supporting the comic and making the continued existence possible submit commands, effectively making them part of the 'team' as much as the story and art elements.

Actually the most inflammatory response was the one where they suggested that Dirk remove two of his ribs so he can suck his own dick more easily.