Alpha Timeline/Canon Timelines Shouldn't Exist

[Blob55]

It just removes all growth and potential from characters who either died or are living in an alternate timeline. It essentially writes off their achievements as "not important enough". Even if said "non-canon" events do several things better or at least more interesting than what's considered to be canon.

Take for example ((Vriska)) who was killed by Terezi on the meteor. She's a much better person than any of the other Vriskas we know, yet she fizzled out into nothing, because "she's no longer canon" or some dumb malarkey.

I think that different timelines should be seen as just that, alternate timelines instead of: lesser timelines, with lesser people who aren't lucky enough to be canon or alive, because *insert character here* had to die for *insert canon event here* to happen. it just writes away any likability this series has IMO. Especially as the doomed timelines keep on piling up to the point where most of the living cast is now a part of a "non-canon" timeline (more about that later).

I know LE needed to make sure he was born, hence where the alpha timeline comes from, but even after his death, Dirk is still carrying around his message, forcing everyone to do what he wants because "It's now canon". Which serves no purpose other than to continue the story, but not even in any meaningful way!

So far these are the characters who are living in the Candy timeline: John, Jade, Jake, Jane, Tavros Crocker, Harry Anderson, Rose, Kanaya, Roxy, Vriska, (Vriska), Karkat, Sollux and Meenah. That's 14 characters whose worth is essentially meaningless because "Canon word is law".
On the Meat side of things, we have: Dirk, Rosebot, Davebot, Dave, Roxy, Jane, Jake, Karkat, Calliope, Aradia, Terezi and Alt!Calliope. That's 12 characters, which is two less than what Candy has. So we're supposed to believe that less than half of all KNOWN living characters lives actually MATTER?! That's really messed up!

Now do you see where the problem lies? The series is essentially telling you to ONLY like those specific characters, because they're the only ones who matter. It doesn't matter if you like Jade, no, she's only good for being a plot device. It doesn't matter if you like Sollux, no he has to fizzle away into obscurity. The comic constantly tells you who you like and who is important, without letting YOU decide for yourself or at least giving you decent character motivation from the actual "canon" characters themselves!

The Beyond Canon crew especially kicks anyone in the butt who doesn't side with their POV, because too *freaking* bad, if you don't like it, just make a fanfic instead! It's completely insulting to anyone who's stuck with HS for a long time.

Overall, I'm pretty exhausted with HS in general. I'll probably make a rant about Friendsim at some point too.

[thorondraco]

That is kinda the point really. Howe paradox space is set up is unfair and even self defeating in many ways, cause it will force one to be at their worse just for them to serve the alpha timeline.

in a sense however no one's achievements are truly lost cause they are remembered by the Ultimate self stuff. Though that likely would not go over well for Vriska considering her possibly did some terrible things in those failed timelines and there are so many incarnations of herself she is in total conflict with.

Ultimately Paradox space acts just like a toxic game master who will Rocks fall your entire timeline for stepping out of line.

[calamityCons]

Paradox Space as a tragic source of endless misery and arbitrary decisions to ruin peoples' lives by making shitty darkfic is valid and all, but it's definitely not something I want to bother with when the story I loved was about superhero kids giving Destiny the middle finger and doing everything in their power to destroy the idea of destiny and make a world where they could be free.

Remember when Rose Lalonde vowed to rip apart her candy coated rock until the secrets fell out? Remember when Dave made meticulous decisions created not for his own happiness but for the happiness of others because at his core he was a truly selfless person? Remember when Jade struggled with the concept of destiny and predestination, believing in it wholeheartedly and pretending to be happy about it because that's how she was raised to be on Prospit in her dreams? She had so much riding on her destiny and becoming a true hero, and when things didn't work out and she stopped knowing what would happen or remembering what her reminders meant, it was the beginning of her darkest hour, and apparently that's just the way she's destined to be for the rest of time because she doesn't deserve good things in canon anymore.

I also agree that the "if you don't like it make a fanfic" is a really dismissive and kind of rude way of covering your own ass. It's a petulant response to complaints and criticisms, where instead of acknowledging the criticism and addressing it, the writers are trying to insist that it's not that way. And this whole canon discussion bullshit is only serving to make everyone upset, and honestly Homestuck's current direction is really exhausting.

[Blob55]

Paradox Space as a tragic source of endless misery and arbitrary decisions to ruin peoples' lives by making shitty darkfic is valid and all, but it's definitely not something I want to bother with when the story I loved was about superhero kids giving Destiny the middle finger and doing everything in their power to destroy the idea of destiny and make a world where they could be free.

Remember when Rose Lalonde vowed to rip apart her candy coated rock until the secrets fell out? Remember when Dave made meticulous decisions created not for his own happiness but for the happiness of others because at his core he was a truly selfless person? Remember when Jade struggled with the concept of destiny and predestination, believing in it wholeheartedly and pretending to be happy about it because that's how she was raised to be on Prospit in her dreams? She had so much riding on her destiny and becoming a true hero, and when things didn't work out and she stopped knowing what would happen or remembering what her reminders meant, it was the beginning of her darkest hour, and apparently that's just the way she's destined to be for the rest of time because she doesn't deserve good things in canon anymore.

I also agree that the "if you don't like it make a fanfic" is a really dismissive and kind of rude way of covering your own ass. It's a petulant response to complaints and criticisms, where instead of acknowledging the criticism and addressing it, the writers are trying to insist that it's not that way. And this whole canon discussion bullshit is only serving to make everyone upset, and honestly Homestuck's current direction is really exhausting.

The issue, is, shouldn't all of PS's BS be done by now? It's being destroyed (or at least the part around the black hole) and everyone who's on Earth should be safe from it's misery and even having to make such important decisions. Continuing to write the Epilogues and HS^2 like it's Act 6 all over again doesn't even fit with the setting. They won. The only person who SHOULD be suffering is Dirk, because he's the only one who wants to start a new session. After all, sessions punish everyone involved.

[Blob55]

That is kinda the point really. Howe paradox space is set up is unfair and even self defeating in many ways, cause it will force one to be at their worse just for them to serve the alpha timeline.

in a sense however no one's achievements are truly lost cause they are remembered by the Ultimate self stuff. Though that likely would not go over well for Vriska considering her possibly did some terrible things in those failed timelines and there are so many incarnations of herself she is in total conflict with.

Ultimately Paradox space acts just like a toxic game master who will Rocks fall your entire timeline for stepping out of line.

Ultimate selves though just exist to be toxic monsters, who only care about the end result. Why should they be the only ones who get to remember everything, if they use it against others?

[thorondraco]

That is kinda the point really. Howe paradox space is set up is unfair and even self defeating in many ways, cause it will force one to be at their worse just for them to serve the alpha timeline.

in a sense however no one's achievements are truly lost cause they are remembered by the Ultimate self stuff. Though that likely would not go over well for Vriska considering her possibly did some terrible things in those failed timelines and there are so many incarnations of herself she is in total conflict with.

Ultimately Paradox space acts just like a toxic game master who will Rocks fall your entire timeline for stepping out of line.

Ultimate selves though just exist to be toxic monsters, who only care about the end result. Why should they be the only ones who get to remember everything, if they use it against others?

Dirk ended up that way. We don't know how DAve ended up though he seems mostly himself, he just realized he had something important to do and feels relieved to have the answers he had been seeking bout himself. He did leave Jade though without an apparent word.

Its possible that someone who has become their ultimate self feels detached to someone's splinters because they look and feel less real, and knowing for a fact they are interacting with a singular tiny facet of their True self.

Rose on the other-hand seemed very much herself after her awakening. Though she was convinced they had to go she was clearly had a lot of doubts and remaining attachment to Earth C inspite of it. Especially to Kanaya. Its probably part why Dirk manipulated kanaya, to make Rose comfortable as possible with leaving. And possibly as a means of rose turning on him later when that truth comes to light.

Its likely people react to the awakening depending on their capacity to do fucked up things. Rose and Dave likely have never had a situation where they did something really fucked up throughout their doomed selves. Someone like Meenah would probably really be negatively impacted by their ultimate self cause, that includes the fuckign empress. Vriska has likely killed different versions of her friends in doomed timelines too, and she literally has a splinter that hates Vriska.
Dirk possibly has the greatest evils of paradox space as part of his ultimate self, least memories of being part of them, and its very likely he accidentally got Jake killed in some timelines, or others killed too with his bullshit.

[Blob55]

That is kinda the point really. Howe paradox space is set up is unfair and even self defeating in many ways, cause it will force one to be at their worse just for them to serve the alpha timeline.

in a sense however no one's achievements are truly lost cause they are remembered by the Ultimate self stuff. Though that likely would not go over well for Vriska considering her possibly did some terrible things in those failed timelines and there are so many incarnations of herself she is in total conflict with.

Ultimately Paradox space acts just like a toxic game master who will Rocks fall your entire timeline for stepping out of line.

Ultimate selves though just exist to be toxic monsters, who only care about the end result. Why should they be the only ones who get to remember everything, if they use it against others?

Dirk ended up that way. We don't know how DAve ended up though he seems mostly himself, he just realized he had something important to do and feels relieved to have the answers he had been seeking bout himself. He did leave Jade though without an apparent word.

Its possible that someone who has become their ultimate self feels detached to someone's splinters because they look and feel less real, and knowing for a fact they are interacting with a singular tiny facet of their True self.

Rose on the other-hand seemed very much herself after her awakening. Though she was convinced they had to go she was clearly had a lot of doubts and remaining attachment to Earth C inspite of it. Especially to Kanaya. Its probably part why Dirk manipulated kanaya, to make Rose comfortable as possible with leaving. And possibly as a means of rose turning on him later when that truth comes to light.

Its likely people react to the awakening depending on their capacity to do fucked up things. Rose and Dave likely have never had a situation where they did something really fucked up throughout their doomed selves. Someone like Meenah would probably really be negatively impacted by their ultimate self cause, that includes the fuckign empress. Vriska has likely killed different versions of her friends in doomed timelines too, and she literally has a splinter that hates Vriska.
Dirk possibly has the greatest evils of paradox space as part of his ultimate self, least memories of being part of them, and its very likely he accidentally got Jake killed in some timelines, or others killed too with his bullshit.

The problem with Dave leaving, is it just paints him as selfish and Jade probably has huge trauma because of it. Her husband died and got replaced by an uncaring robot who only wants to beat Dirk up. Meat exists to belittle and insult fans of Candy and people that happen to enjoy characters who end up overlooked and ignored.

[JakeMorph]

what is this thread saying exactly? neither meat nor candy are more canon than the other, both of them are being continued in h^2, and it is true of literally any story that some characters will eventually stop being relevant

[thorondraco]

what is this thread saying exactly? neither meat not candy are more canon than the other, both of them are being continued in h^2, and it is true of literally any story that some characters will eventually stop being relevant

In terms of classical canon, exactly.

In terms of paradxo space technical Meat is technically more than candy cause it closes the timeloop once and for all, while Candy doesn't in any way possible, but John's whole timeline split made them both equally 'canon' too. But of course that makes the candy timeline dangerous cause it creates a true blue paradox. We have no idea what would happen if that happened.

We don't know what happens with retcon or narrative powers break the timeloop.

[melonLord]

Paradox Space as a tragic source of endless misery and arbitrary decisions to ruin peoples' lives by making shitty darkfic is valid and all, but it's definitely not something I want to bother with when the story I loved was about superhero kids giving Destiny the middle finger and doing everything in their power to destroy the idea of destiny and make a world where they could be free.

...

But inside the black hole, those who the paradox once discarded seek to claw back to relevance and escape to the Fanontinuum, a new fabric of story and space woven by the hands of new narrators, thousands of voices that fill the vacuum left by the death of the author.

[calamityCons]

Returning to relevance and the “Fanontinuum” isn’t what I meant. If they’re going back into canon or relevance or whatever the fuck, that isn’t giving destiny the middle finger. That’s them doing everything they can to make sure they HAVE a destiny.

[thorondraco]

Returning to relevance and the “Fanontinuum” isn’t what I meant. If they’re going back into canon or relevance or whatever the fuck, that isn’t giving destiny the middle finger. That’s them doing everything they can to make sure they HAVE a destiny.

Or maybe claim the power of Destiny for themselves?

[MorganMustDie]

I know LE needed to make sure he was born, hence where the alpha timeline comes from, but even after his death, Dirk is still carrying around his message, forcing everyone to do what he wants because "It's now canon". Which serves no purpose other than to continue the story, but not even in any meaningful way!

Rememberrrrrr, part of Dirk's ultimate self is undeniably linked to Lord English.

It could be less that discussion of The Canon Timeline is the direction of homestuck meta for good, and more that that's just what Lord Dirk wants you to think. After all, it's pretty clear that Candy is just as important as Meat is. The only person we ever hear saying otherwise is Dirk himself

[thorondraco]

I know LE needed to make sure he was born, hence where the alpha timeline comes from, but even after his death, Dirk is still carrying around his message, forcing everyone to do what he wants because "It's now canon". Which serves no purpose other than to continue the story, but not even in any meaningful way!

Rememberrrrrr, part of Dirk's ultimate self is undeniably linked to Lord English.

It could be less that discussion of The Canon Timeline is the direction of homestuck meta for good, and more that that's just what Lord Dirk wants you to think. After all, it's pretty clear that Candy is just as important as Meat is. The only person we ever hear saying otherwise is Dirk himself

Dirk doesn't really say much about candy at all. We don't know if, at least at the time, he had any awareness that the splitoff timeline was more than a doomed timeline. He could have realized it wasn't during the space trip. It was in fact Calliope who kept on saying that 'it is unimportant' and making statements of 'never against shall the twain meet' and such.

Chronology has always been weird with Homestuck. Like in pesterquest we had that code that appeared to be dirk talking about sensing a 'disturbance in the narrative' and such. The thing is we don't actually know at what point he sensed that disturbance. It could have been on the ship ride, or it could have be the interim month after he mindraped Jake, or even when Calliope had control. So its possible things dirk or calliope did not realize before, they realized inbetween.

[Blob55]

what is this thread saying exactly? neither meat nor candy are more canon than the other, both of them are being continued in h^2, and it is true of literally any story that some characters will eventually stop being relevant

Except it always ends up being the characters I like the most, which is why the epilogues and HS^2 annoys me so much.

[Blob55]

I know LE needed to make sure he was born, hence where the alpha timeline comes from, but even after his death, Dirk is still carrying around his message, forcing everyone to do what he wants because "It's now canon". Which serves no purpose other than to continue the story, but not even in any meaningful way!

Rememberrrrrr, part of Dirk's ultimate self is undeniably linked to Lord English.

It could be less that discussion of The Canon Timeline is the direction of homestuck meta for good, and more that that's just what Lord Dirk wants you to think. After all, it's pretty clear that Candy is just as important as Meat is. The only person we ever hear saying otherwise is Dirk himself

True, Dirk is part of LE, but since LE already has a way to be born, Dirk should stop clutching onto things that'll only make things worse for others.

Dirk has no reason to initiate a session other than for his MASSIVE ego to telling him what to do. Most of Ultimate Dirk's reasons come down to him being bored instead of IDK, picking up a hobby or not being the worst villain ever.

[MorganMustDie]

True, Dirk is part of LE, but since LE already has a way to be born, Dirk should stop clutching onto things that'll only make things worse for others.

Dirk has no reason to initiate a session other than for his MASSIVE ego to telling him what to do. Most of Ultimate Dirk's reasons come down to him being bored instead of IDK, picking up a hobby or not being the worst villain ever.

I'd argue the opposite. Dirk's character arc has always vaguely been about the struggle to suppress/control his splinter selves, and the toll that that takes on him. Maybe this isn't entirely his idea. He's just losing the fight to his alternate selves.

[PilotBlackSmith]

Paradox space is the main villain of Homestuck because only what *it* wants, regardless of good or bad, is what "matters" to the narrative.

[Blob55]

Paradox space is the main villain of Homestuck because only what *it* wants, regardless of good or bad, is what "matters" to the narrative.

Isn't PS supposed to be done though? It just feels like Dirk is doing random stuff because nothing matters but him.