Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

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MorganMustDie
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Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

Post by MorganMustDie » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:05 am

thorondraco wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:17 pm
He is referred to as he in the epilogues.
this... this would apply to a transgender man too? Cliper's existence isn't defined by being the cisgender jadeblood, nor is it defined by being a transman jadeblood. he is literally just a dude with a clipboard and those are the extent of the things we know about him

- Uses male pronouns
- Has a clipboard

given the amount of ecto-fuckery and lack of earth c troll cultural knowledge we have, we really have no business or method to determining whether Cliper is a cis or trans man. As such, I find the clipboard side of his personality a lot more interesting.
What does he write on it? Will we ever know? These are the questions we SHOULD be asking...

(an additional note is that maybe thorondraco should do some more research into trans stuff before making calls like these, because I can certainly see some holes in your knowledge)
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Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

Post by JakeMorph » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:40 am

thorondraco wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:12 am
Sighs. that is the entire point of the matter. Cliper's potential here stems from the stated rarity of a cisgender boy amongst the jades. We don't know if such a thing would be have focus though, he might just be a secondary character and remain as just that. Could be they plan on exploring the idea with someone or something else?
If Cliper was anything else but a jadeblood he'd just be the troll with a clipboard who is friend with Swifer and i guess we wouldn't be having this conversation? Shrugs.
your fixation on the idea that cliper "is a cisgender boy" (again: we do not know that. you are assuming that) says that you still don't really Get It and as MMD suggests you would benefit from educating yourself a little on the topic before making gender-oriented claims like this that heavily rely on knowledge of transgender topic.

your assumption that the "rarity of cisgender boy(s) amongst the jades" is "stated" is just that: an assumption. aranea does not say anything about transgender or cis males. she just says that the caste is "almost exclusively female". for all you or any of us know, ALL jadeblood males are trans. this does not contradict cliper's character, because again, we do not know what he was assigned at birth. and again, i must stress: it does not matter! cliper would still be a "rarity" if he were a trans boy! that would not change! a boy is a boy is a boy! the "potential" in the characters as males in a female dominated caste is the same.
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Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

Post by Robot_Face » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:02 am

And, on a related note, all jadeblood females could be trans, too, and it still wouldn't matter.
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Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

Post by eldomtom2 » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:02 am

JakeMorph wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:40 am
for all you or any of us know, ALL jadeblood males are trans.
Wouldn't that make the caste exclusively female?

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Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

Post by thorondraco » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:05 am

MorganMustDie wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:05 am
thorondraco wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:17 pm
He is referred to as he in the epilogues.
this... this would apply to a transgender man too? Cliper's existence isn't defined by being the cisgender jadeblood, nor is it defined by being a transman jadeblood. he is literally just a dude with a clipboard and those are the extent of the things we know about him

- Uses male pronouns
- Has a clipboard

given the amount of ecto-fuckery and lack of earth c troll cultural knowledge we have, we really have no business or method to determining whether Cliper is a cis or trans man. As such, I find the clipboard side of his personality a lot more interesting.
What does he write on it? Will we ever know? These are the questions we SHOULD be asking...

(an additional note is that maybe thorondraco should do some more research into trans stuff before making calls like these, because I can certainly see some holes in your knowledge)
My whole focus on him is mostly because, by aranea's statement, cisgendered male jades are supposed to be extremely rare. Not unheard, just very uncommon. its generally jsut in context of him being a jdaeblood. If he was any other part of the hemospectrum i wouldn't have put so much focus on him. Its a very narrow field but it interests me cause weird lore stuff.

Maybe he has a list of names of people who have wronged him and whom he will seek retribution.

Though honestly the whatpumpkin staff is normally very clear on who is who and what pronouns they use. Cirava, lanque, and so on. So who knows?

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Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

Post by VASKA » Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:48 am

Frankly I'm far more interested in the fact that the cobalt caste is "male dominated" but Mallek remains the only male cobalt we've seen.

I have 0 interest in Cliper except for his proximity to Swifer.

Edit for Morgan:

Cliper is an analyst. he has analyses on his clipboard.
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Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

Post by JakeMorph » Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:08 am

VASKA wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:48 am
Frankly I'm far more interested in the fact that the cobalt caste is "male dominated" but Mallek remains the only male cobalt we've seen.
this is an important point. a slice of 7 individuals out of Probably Millions (citation needed) is not going to be representative of greater trends. cliper is not The Only Jade Boy In Existence just because he's the only one we've seen, and it's quite extreme to assume that.

i suppose something could be said about the fact that if hiveswap wanted to give us a look at what alternia is normally like it would make sense for them to give us groups of trolls that ARE representative of their castes, but i think a case should be made for giving us exceptions, too, and like i've been saying, i think lanque ALREADY REPRESENTS an exception to the commonly held 'jadebloods are girls' rule.

the gag about all the cobalt girls in hiveswap being some form of 'not vriska' = something to do with gender identity among bluebloods? i'll workshop it
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Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

Post by VASKA » Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:39 am

cobalt gender is interesting because although Jade seems to he pretty lesbian dense Cobalts seem pretty lesbian archetype centric. Elwurd exists obviously, but Vriska is pretty butch in her own right (i dont personally think Vriska's boy-interest is performative like some people though). Ardata is the image of a femme, and there's an inexplicable gay aura around Remele, at least for me.
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Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

Post by Nep » Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:10 am

This thread feels a bit unnecessary desu, it could potentially become discourse fodder.
VASKA wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:13 am
in my mind theres like, a hierarchy of transness in homestuck trolls.

unambiguously trans:

kanaya, vriska

i can see it in retrospect:

eridan, sollux

it would make sense:

Tavros, equius
Vriska's stuff feels like forcibly shoehorned in honestly, as there was no prior indication of such thing and I feel like she wasn't made with that in mind.

???????? On Kanaya through? She never striked me as that, also it could be that trolls could be hermaphroditic, or just do the thing Tavros did in that one paradox space comic.

Eridan I feel like it's people taking March eridan way too seriously in my opinion as it was meant to be a joke and crossdressing is a thing.

I don't buy sollux's thing because Andrew worded it as a "Le funny joke" that the fandom is blindly eating like it's a real thing.

Again ???????? On Tavros and Equius, it just seems like wishful thinking.

I know my third worlder ass wouldn't probably understand any of this shit, but...

>Trans implying gender is critical in troll culture while relying on silly and dumb human concepts forgetting trolls are an alien race.

I sleep.

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>Addressing the mere idea/concept of Transbloods (Trolls that feel they don't belong in that caste/blood color) while keeping in mind their cultural definitions and morals are different from us humans and remembering they're ALIENS. (Example: Murder's mostly ok for them, Alternia is Lord of the flies planet edition, openly endorse Space conquest, Slavery could still possibly be a thing!).

REAL SHIT

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Last edited by Nep on Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

Post by JakeMorph » Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:16 am

> wah wah the transgenders making a thread to talk about transgenderism is unnecessary because people are going to argue

> comes into thread about transgenderism just to argue with transgender headcanons
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Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

Post by Nep » Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:32 am

JakeMorph wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:16 am
> wah wah the transgenders making a thread to talk about transgenderism is unnecessary because people are going to argue

> comes into thread about transgenderism just to argue with transgender headcanons
Or you could learn to not be angry when someone doesn't agree with your subjective idea of what things could be like.

As for point 1, my worry is understandable since the Junecourse where someone poorly made a June thread where it sounded like mean-spirited mocking.

Granted alternia doesn't even do this whole sexuality bs like we humans do seriously, mostly because the way they breed isn't like ours so they can be more free on their thing. Thought homosexuality and heterosexuality would be just simple fetishes to them objectively, considering mostly that either option just cuts down on your pailing options in half making it waaaaaay less likely for a troll to find a matesprit/kismesis for their filial pails and you know that failure to sastify the genetic material quota results in a painful death.

Ergo therefore if their views on sexuality are that different, then their views on gender could be different due to biotech being a commonplace thing and their ways of thinking are different than ours. Who knows maybe they don't treat this stuff seriously as a violation of conduct on the Empress's rules unless their biotech hasn't gotten that far for such transgender operations to not render them sterile/unable to deliver genetic material for the mother grub.

Remember this isn't beforus where it's more closer to human stuff in terms of world issues and this isn't certainly earth C stuff either!

Doc Scratch meddling does impact on a big scale.
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Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

Post by VASKA » Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:20 am

i assure you my belief that Tavros could reasonably be presented as trans is not wishful thinking, because if i I were thinking wishfully Tavros would be dead
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Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

Post by calamityCons » Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:23 am

Jesus Christ this thread is definitely volatile if “the transgenders made a thread to talk about transgenders” is a statement that happens. First of all this thread was made by B3N, who seems to have leapt off of it in response to the high emotional volatility in here. Secondly, I take a lot of umbrage to the phrasing JakeMorph used, I find it very much strawmanning what Nep said. From what I understand, Nep was trying to convey they had more interest in discussing more alien angles to take the Alternian trolls rather than discussing something as confusing and vague as Troll Gender.

Lastly, Eridan being some flavor of trans makes sense, as crossdressing is considered to be under the umbrella of “gender queer”, which is what binary trans people fall into as well. Binary trans people are the mainstream concept of a trans person, but people who like to adopt “opposite” gendered mannerisms and clothing such as drag queens and crossdressers also belong in the Queer community. We’re all outcast from the strict binary social norm by not conforming perfectly.
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Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

Post by Nep » Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:35 am

calamityCons wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:23 am
1. Jesus Christ this thread is definitely volatile if “the transgenders made a thread to talk about transgenders” is a statement that happens.

2. I find it very much strawmanning what Nep said.

3. From what I understand, Nep was trying to convey they had more interest in discussing more alien angles to take the Alternian trolls rather than discussing something as confusing and vague as Troll Gender.
1. Glad you recognize this thread as a potential time bomb, it's always important to be keen and recognize them. Especially when really emotionally volatile people do exist and it could suddenly devolve into pointless shit flinging.

2. I'm not really aware of this strawmanning stuff, please do explain since I always do speak what I think so it tends to come across more honestly.

3. Yep that's mostly the gist of it. I'm glad you caught on real quick, that makes you hella cool.
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Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

Post by calamityCons » Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:01 am

Thanks for the compliment Nep! And I was trying to say JakeMorph’s post comes across as misconstruing your post to be “Stop talking about trans issues” rather than your actual point you were trying to make.
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Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

Post by ThePungeonMaster » Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:49 am

Hoo boy, this thread is just a powder keg innit?
I haven't been keeping tabs on this thread, as at the start it seemed to be about how gendered classes are impacted by trans characters, but there was that one statement by Hussie about how classes aren't explicitly gender locked, and that Calliope's theories about gender locked classes may be incorrect. As such I figured this thread would be written of or just left to gather dust.
But it seems that it has just turned into a thread discussing trans character in general, so I think it's time I put in my two cents.

At the start I had a lot of problems with characters being proposed as trans, well, it's more accurate to say I still do, but those concerns have become far less important to me. First off is how it impacts the numerology in Homestuck. As strange as it sounds, the main reason June Egbert and trans Vriska bothered me is that it went against the 50% male 50% female pattern already established by SBURB sessions in Homestuck. It seemed to me that it was a construct designed by Skaia, and Skaia keeps track of the destiny of all SBURB players, so throwing that off just feels kind of incongruous with the plot. At least to me.

Another plot related problem I had with the reveal of trans Vriska was the genetic repeats present in troll biology. As we know, there are 5 repeats of trolls with geneology the similar to if not the same as Vriska. The implication of Vriska being trans is that all other copies of Vriska have also been assigned male at birth, and then become female early in their life. This just doesn't make any sense. You would figure that at least one of the other Vriska variations would feel comfortable with being assigned as male, and wouldn't feel it necessary to change. There is something that does go a way to amend this in the Eridan route, in how gender is much more fluid for trolls than for humans. This makes sense, they are aliens and most of them are gay/bisexual, so gender has less of an impact on their reproduction, but still doesn't address the main problem. If that if that were the case, there should be at least one other troll confirmed trans, or with an alternate gender pairing among their dancestors or alternate selves.

Which brings us to our next topic of discussion, Eridan. He didn't come off as trans to me, and attempting to pin him as trans doesn't feel right to me. Especially after that whole rant he did about gender, only to say that he wasn't trans, but was thinking about his gender. Saying that Eridan is trans seems, to me, to be like saying a man questioning his sexuality is definitely gay/bi. It's jumping the gun a touch.

But this really doesn't touch at the heart of why I dislike trans characters like Vriska and June. It feels disingenuous. There is little plot reason for why these characters should be trans, and there is ample plot reason against it. John to me was always the most straight of any of the other characters; "I am not a homosexual" and all that. And so becoming trans is not a character development that I can reasonably see happening. He has been too comfortable with his masculinity up until this point, and so becoming trans makes no sense. And much the same can be said for Vriska. She never once expressed doubt or uncomfortability about her own gender up until this point, and so it's just unceremoniously dropped on us, with no consideration of how it actually impacts the story. I'm fine with them being trans so long as it's done with respect to changes in the character, as part of an arc.

EDIT. Removed a couple sentences because they came off a bit too strong. Don't want to sound overly aggressive or abrasive in my assertions.
Last edited by ThePungeonMaster on Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

Post by classpectanon » Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:25 am

I really do not want to have to lock a thread like this because I think it is important to talk about this sort of stuff but y'all really gotta cool your jets and also watch what you say a little more.
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Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

Post by MorganMustDie » Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:50 am

transman roxy got fashion style ngl
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Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

Post by thorondraco » Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:56 am

MorganMustDie wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:50 am
transman roxy got fashion style ngl
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Re: Trans Reveals and Gender Parity

Post by calamityCons » Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:02 pm

I can understand why trans vriska and trans june egbert are incongruous and certainly also pretty damn cynical. It is way too easy to categorize these reveals as post-canon attempts to earn Woke Points, which may or may not be the case. I can certainly see it with Vriska because I don’t have a strong emotional connection to her nor do i think it goes against anything she has ever done or said in the comic.

June however I have a problem with, because John was always a prime example of non-toxic masculinity. He was a boy who loved his dad openly, and his dad loved him back. He baked with his father, he played rough with him, he was excited to wear a grown up suit just like his dad, he modeled himself to his dad and in turn he became the prime source of emotional connection and the heart of the team. He was a very powerful representative of a Boy who is masculine, but SECURE in it to the point he doesn’t struggle with his identity in the comic but rather acts as a bedrock for others. He was, ironically for a character associated with the wind, a stable and nonjudgmental fixed point, who could reach out and pluck his friends away from dark paths. He did this with Rose, he did this with Dave, he did this with Jade. He encouraged them to believe in themselves and love themselves, because HE loves THEM. This portrayal of masculine-flavored friend love was a huge part of my concept of the character, so it’s tough for me to imagine June could be a plausible iteration of this hypothetical person who exists in my mind.

Eridan may not be trans, because I agree that jumps the gun. He is at the very least a questioning person who needs to do soul searching and self reflection before coming to a conclusion. In my mind, it’s likely that he will conclude he is still a boy, still wants to be referred to as he/him, but he happens to enjoy being a fabulous crossdresser and being a gender nonconforming badass no matter what anyone says. GNC is probably a label that suits him best, but he’s a fictional character.

There’s also the fact that sometimes gender and sexuality headcanons are purely wish fulfillment. There is nothing wrong with that. We are talking about people who only exist as pictures and words on the internet and a system of memories and personality that exist within our minds. They are real because we made them real, and there are infinite ways you could discard or warp or turn over or copy the character you have in mind to make yourself happy. It is a valid thing to do, because nobody is getting hurt, and it makes the one making headcanons happy.

It is different for a creative team actually connected to the source material, because these are supposed to build upon all the rules stated before. When you put out a work publicly, you come up with rules for the world the characters live in, and part of the fun is imagining and pretending that these people are real and had a life before the events of the story. Unfortunately, once you put something down explicitly in the work of art you made, the expectation and good storytelling form dictates you stick to the thing. In the words of a youtube reviewer, the audience attitude is this:
You came up with these dumbass rules and I expect you to follow them to the letter.
Now there can be some wiggle room. You could keep a part of the story deliberately vague so you don’t have any solid rules to break. You could keep something a secret and not reveal it until much later on, creating a shocking swerve and make an unbelievable plot twist that changes everything. You could introduce the superpower in-story to change reality so that any errors never happened. You could end the story entirely and then reboot it, this time with a clearer idea of what happened and what didn’t within the context of YOUR story.

When you try to say “actually this character was always secretly X the whole time!” That gets frustrating, because it breaks the rules in a really lazy way to get all the benefits of getting the audience’s attention but at the detriment of audience goodwill. This is why Gainax Endings piss people off so much. If your deep and deconstructive mecha anime ends with the main character talking to a penguin, you get angry people demanding their questions be answered. If you suddenly reveal that Dumbledore was gay the whole time, it’ll be hard for people to take you seriously and it will make those who wish for more gay rep outside of stereotypes really mad because it’s a toothless, shitty reveal.

If, as the result of a lottery, someone wished for the main source of healthy masculinity and stability were to become a trans feminine woman, and God grants that wish but makes no effort to demonstrate it anywhere, in any of the media revealed so far, and won’t even show it in the Deliberately Shitting On Canon Pesterquest... well. I hope that the transition and explanation for June Egbert shows up sometime soon.

In real life, June doesnt need a “reason” or to “explain herself” of why she is herself. But June is not real, and all evidence that the audience agrees is true points away from June being a thing. Unfortunately, I am attached to John, so June will need to give me a lot more convincing before I start to feature her in my stuff. That’s really the extent of the debate, though. I like John as he is. I’d rather keep him around for all he means to me. That’s just me personally though. I have no right to demand others do the same.
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