I'm afraid for HS^2

[sigmatic]

One thing to consider about the speed of the updates: Andrew worked years on Homestuck, which was basically all he did for a lot of them. The new team also have other things in their lives to do and I think asking for donations on a public project that is accessible for everyone to read isn't an unfair thing to ask.

[Endater]

It's probably easier for one man to pump out updates than for a team to. I hope we get decently sized updates though. Is there a notifier extension like there was for mspaintadventures?

[Generalrabogolfo]

It's probably easier for one man to pump out updates than for a team to. I hope we get decently sized updates though. Is there a notifier extension like there was for mspaintadventures?

I think someone on a /co/ thread already did it. And also, yeah, I bet the updates will be of a considerable size, I guess the size of first update or a bit less.

[Endater]

And also, yeah, I bet the updates will be of a considerable size, I guess the size of first update or a bit less.

desu, I'd rather get a 5 page update every week or a 10 page update every two weeks than a 20 page update every month. Especially with how much Dirk blabs on and on.

[Alder]

It's probably easier for one man to pump out updates than for a team to. I hope we get decently sized updates though. Is there a notifier extension like there was for mspaintadventures?

I dunno about that one. When you have people dedicated to a singular role and capable of committing to one thing when they already have an outline in place, updates should be far easier to get out. Division of labor and all that.

[Generalrabogolfo]

And also, yeah, I bet the updates will be of a considerable size, I guess the size of first update or a bit less.

desu, I'd rather get a 5 page update every week or a 10 page update every two weeks than a 20 page update every month. Especially with how much Dirk blabs on and on.

I'm with you in this one. I think is a shame we aren't getting more regular updates or that we are not going back to that update culture that I heard was so good (this is btw the only thing I truly hate I missed), but I can understand their reasons for doing this the way they're doing it. Not everything can be as we want to, I guess.

[Wing]

My two cents on this:
I understand the intention: They want to make Homestuck accessible and give the community some manner of authorial voice. That's noble! Homestuck started as something where the fandom was hands-on, on a forum where people were very hands on! That's good! But the execution... that kills it. It's in a separate site, dedicated solely to host the comic, as opposed to being in, I don't know, MSPFA? They could do that, come in contact with the community of people that actually make comics, get some feedback from the community.
This is what I would say if I were a naive little bitch, which I ain't. It only takes this thread to see that the majority of the fandom is quite hostile to whatever move that the creators make. Hiveswap? Too late! Go faster! Homestuck getting a conclusion? I don't like it! Delete it! Homestuck^2? It sucks! Stop! Make something better!
This is not to say, of course, that there isn't valid and useful criticism about any of the points I used! The Epilogues weren't bad (from what I read of them, and I shan't dare speak of that which I do not fully understand), Hiveswap is in the works, and Homestuck^2 could use some constructive criticism (tweak up the rooms and the sprites, change the art style to fit a different narrative)! However, we, as the community, must, invariably, learn how to portray ourselves in a non-hostile manner, that befits a collection of people who like something and who want a hand on it. Instead of tearing down that which we don't like, we have to build up that which we do like.
So, to conclude: Homestuck^2 definitely needs some polish, but I also believe that it deserves help. Help from us, the community. Help that can only come the moment we decide to not slander and harass the creators and actually try to help and create. Homestuck^2 shows a lot of promise! It has multiple, very good writers, Xamag (an artist whose skill I can't fully describe with my limited vocabulary) doing the art, and Andrew himself, of course, writing the outline. The future is made, not written, so let's make it good.


Post-scriptum: Before I get accused of siding with WP et alii on this, I'd like to state this: If they truly wanted the community to have a hand in creating Homestuck, then they should make Homestuck public domain.
Postquam-post-scriptum: Y'all talk about gender way too much, yo.

Sorry to potentially bump a topic that's passed but I think this is an incredibly good take on a lot of the stuff that's been going on.

This is also something that I hope the forums can foster a community for. Where people from different platforms and usual social media groups can come together to all talk in one place and find mutual understanding. The division of the fandom that becomes a stark them vs. us is never helpful, especially since Homestuck is very obviously trying to take in fandom influence. It's important more than just one type of fan gets a voice.

Whether they're successfully getting fandom influence is another matter which I don't have a set opinion on as of now.

[cyberKinetist]

I've previously written a critique of Homestuck^2's intentions on Reddit, reposting it now so maybe more people can hear it

I think the authors are kinda digging a pit when they're saying oxymorons like "official fanonization".

When the Epilogues was talking about canon, it was distinct (although related) from the actual modes of canonicity we perceive in reality. The fact that the Candy route is a "decanonized" world in the story's metanarrative terms, doesn't mean that the story is actually not canon in reality. This is because the Epilogues were in fact directed by Hussie, uploaded in homestuck.com, endorsed by official outlets such as Viz Media and What Pumpkin, and therefore has authority in the fandom (or if you think a bit differently, the fandom gave the writers the authority because of it). Those social, economical (and even political) aspects contribute to the realization of "canon" in the real world and in the fandom, and any length of philosophical rambling in the Epilogues within their narrative framework cannot directly change that.

I think what the writers are trying to do in Homestuck^2 is to throw questions to us about the current modes of canonicity we currently believe in, to succumb less to the authority of canon and create our own narratives. But to achieve this without becoming somewhat of a hypocrite (because they now have the same authority of canonicity that they've criticized before), I think they need to step out of their comfort zones and actually have a talk with various parts of the fandom a bit more, rather than just circlejerking on Twitter. That's why I hope the writers interact with this subreddit more, I think Twitter (as a social media platform) alone is not a good place to have nuanced discussions with the fandom.

Reflecting on this post weeks later... If this forum could be an official communication site with the Homestuck authors, it would be really great. I've started Twitter some months ago to get to know more with the writers in Hiveswap/Pesterquest, and although it helped in learning their perspectives, I absolutely don't think the authors could interact with the fandom in any healthy way there. It's so prone to starting flame wars without actual meaningful discussion, because of the limited word count and Twitter's algorithms solely based on viralness and profitability, with the fact that there is no one who can moderate anything at all. Although I'm a newcomer in this fandom (just started this year), I find the subreddit and this forum much more at home...

[classpectanon]

for the record, i don't think accusing the authors of "circlejerking" is going to be a great way of getting them to agree with your viewpoints or even take them under consideration

[cyberKinetist]

Yeah, you have a good point, because when viewed from the perspective of the authors it's kinda me that's circlejerking around Reddit and this site, so it would seem I'm a hypocrite. Maybe if I were a bit braver, I would have tried to talk about this topic with the authors through Twitter, but I couldn't because the atmosphere around there wasn't that great at all. I'm right now trying to juggle between three websites (Reddit, Twitter, and this forum) to listen to various parts of the fandom, so I can get various perspectives on how we view and interpret Homestuck in many different ways. (And hope that maybe the fandom could reconcile as a whole someday...) I really don't like how different social media websites are trapping us inside bubbles and making us fight with each other.

To add, I actually really support the writers and am pretty happy with the directions the writers are taking in Pesterquest. (I even really enjoyed Kate's Vriska route, despite quite some backlash in the fandom). However, what I'm trying to address is not that; I'm trying to say that there is a mismatch between the author's actions and the promises of canonicity-freedom presented in Homestuck^2, and that can result in the weakening of Homestuck^2's overall statement and goals. I really want Homestuck^2 to succeed at what it's trying to do, I really want Homestuck to explore the concept of canonicity, I want it to do something radical and innovative. However, I'm starting to realize such a thing couldn't be done in just text and images; it is also related to the culture and the politics of the fandom, and addressing it would be an uphill battle but nevertheless important.

[thorondraco]

I think we need to have a little more faith in Hussie's team's ability to be professional. Or at the very least be professional with the comic itself. They all have their own beliefs and all but Hussie is still at the helm, its just that he isn't pulling a jack sparrow and doing the part of the rest of the crew. And that they won't start doing things just for the sake of an agenda rather than to entertain.

Besides i don't know if there are many bigots who read Homestuck to begin with. There is a metric ton of lgbtq packed into it so anyone who kinda hates on that kinda stuff and still finished homestuck either can't read blatant context or is a masochist. Or is Equiss and is closet woke while pretending to be a racist.

Though yea some of the team seem to be bit more coarse than the others. Most are chill, some are not, but honestly they are likely professional enough keep their venting to twitter and focus on the project. They are all contract workers after all.

[nonsenseMnemonic]

HS^2 carries with it the issues of the Epilogues, which I'm not particularly fond of, so right off the bat I'm a bit uneasy about it.
I think I'm also a little bummed out about the sheer amount of context-dependent content we're getting. As in, Homestuck itself is already ridiculously long and can be hard for new people to get into, and now we're adding on the Epilogues (and Friendsim + Pesterquest) -- it's a lot, and I'm worried it'll make it harder for new people, even those who are eager to participate, to catch up and get in. I have a lot of friends who are sorta interested in Homestuck's continuation, and it's a little bit of a drag to know how long it's going to take for them to catch up. This isn't a flaw, but I wish I could talk to them about the new stuff sooner.

OP brought up some complaints about the existence of a Patreon and request for donations, which I don't think should be an issue. There's nothing wrong with asking for donations for putting out free creative work, and it's something that's become pretty common.
I also don't really care if the creators are rude to people on Twitter or wherever. It'd be nice if there weren't any arguments there, but honestly? Twitter isn't a place for kind or productive conversations. Being a creator on Twitter gets you harassed and I don't harbor ill will against anyone on WP who gets frustrated by all this.

The part of HS^2 that's left the worst taste in my mouth hasn't been the story or the format or the inclusion of fan creators; I'm really making an effort to be open to enjoying how things go, even as a continuation to events I wish hadn't happened. It's the FAQ -- "official fanonization" feels like trying to have your cake and eat it too. Official is plastered all over this project (which makes it a lot harder to buy into the whole "blurring of lines between what is considered authoritative about media" thing). Passing the torch to a specific, contained group of people, turning them into official creators, to me elevates it above fan work, not because it's made by people Hussie's approved of, but because it's specifically being promoted as something that is above other fan works. Which ties into:
"Empowering fans." If officialization is the method being used to empower fans, what does this say about fan work that isn't official? I'm having a hard time interpreting this in a way that doesn't downplay the inherent value of fan work. It feels like the emphasis on empowerment through officialization implies that the value of fan content -- and whether or not its creators are empowered -- is determined, at least in part, by whether or not it's official. But fan content doesn't need to be legitimized.
This, the FAQ, frustrates me because I don't think this has to be the case at all: continuing Homestuck doesn't need to mean anything different for fanon's legitimacy. Homestuck's fate doesn't need to be determined by the fandom at large. It's not bad if a small group of people are the only ones responsible for it. Homestuck doesn't need to be decentralized -- but now that that's the direction it seems we're going in, I'd rather we not conflate the power of fan work with authority over official content.

[MatthewHMay]

I'm glad for more HS content in general, but yeah I'm a bit scared about what direction the new comic will go in; However my concerns differ from the OP.

[Wing]

Reflecting on this post weeks later... If this forum could be an official communication site with the Homestuck authors, it would be really great. I've started Twitter some months ago to get to know more with the writers in Hiveswap/Pesterquest, and although it helped in learning their perspectives, I absolutely don't think the authors could interact with the fandom in any healthy way there. It's so prone to starting flame wars without actual meaningful discussion, because of the limited word count and Twitter's algorithms solely based on viralness and profitability, with the fact that there is no one who can moderate anything at all. Although I'm a newcomer in this fandom (just started this year), I find the subreddit and this forum much more at home...

One thing I really do agree with is the concept that the social media disconnect is causing a problem. A lot of the fandom is currently sticking to their social media bubbles, which is understandable, but also really doesn't allow a good platform for meaningful discussion. Some discord servers make this easier, but those are also discord servers, which sort of have their own bubbles of community.

Obviously the forums are going to become some sort of bubble of their own, but if they can become anything like old MSPA where it's more of an official place to talk about Homestuck and everything as a whole, it would be great if it facilitated important discussion that otherwise would just be petty arguments.

[Cello]

My main criticism to HS^2 besides the update schedule and some of the writing is the Patreon, and the way that it seems to imply that details of the comic will be hidden behind a paywall.

I quote from the Patreon:

Bonus updates will show side stories, vignettes, and more details from the world of the main story.

This is for the second tier, which costs 5 dollars per month. Now, for me, this is the worst thing that they could have done. Yes, the commentary is locked in a bigger tier of 20 dollars per month, but that feels more fair, as the Homestuck commentary itself is paywalled behind the books (at least in that case, you have the novelty of a web comic in book form), but right now, they don't have an excuse to hide bonus content that was previously free for everyone to see (the payed commands), especially if it is something extremely important for the story that everyone that isn't in the Patreon won't understand. Yes, we haven't seen any of the bonus comics yet, but as soon as they show a detail that's at the least semi-important for the free comic, this will become a big problem for people that don't pay for it.

[Rob]

Right now I'm hopeful for it. I actually dropped out of reading Homestuck during Act 6 but the Epilogues brought me back in. The way the relationship between an author and their work was explored in Meat really struck a chord with me, so I'm really interested in where HS^2 goes. What I hope is that the authors do try and incorporate fandom in a novel way. There is a lot that can be achieved under a mix of community and author direction. For instance: you can create forums.

On the other hand: if it is just an unofficial story about relationships then I am

[egg]

My main hope is that Dirk doesn't just end up being a strawman for people who didn't like Homestuck post-Act 6, as it could very well head that way. It would honestly seem pretty crappy if they were just like "hey remember this thing that made all of you upset? well you're not valid for being upset"

[calamityCons]

My main hope is that Dirk doesn't just end up being a strawman for people who didn't like Homestuck post-Act 6, as it could very well head that way. It would honestly seem pretty crappy if they were just like "hey remember this thing that made all of you upset? well you're not valid for being upset"

Hard Agree

[MorganMustDie]

My main hope is that Dirk doesn't just end up being a strawman for people who didn't like Homestuck post-Act 6, as it could very well head that way. It would honestly seem pretty crappy if they were just like "hey remember this thing that made all of you upset? well you're not valid for being upset"

Extra this, especially after Kate's comment that the people who disliked Act 6 just wanted to "make Homestuck straight again," rather than disliking it for the myriad of weird writing changes and general plot-directionlessness

[calamityCons]

My main hope is that Dirk doesn't just end up being a strawman for people who didn't like Homestuck post-Act 6, as it could very well head that way. It would honestly seem pretty crappy if they were just like "hey remember this thing that made all of you upset? well you're not valid for being upset"

Extra this, especially after Kate's comment that the people who disliked Act 6 just wanted to "make Homestuck straight again," rather than disliking it for the myriad of weird writing changes and general plot-directionlessness

That comment sounds like strawmanning the people who fell off the wagon in Act 6. I mean, my main contention was that the Act started with new characters when I had been under the impression that the story was gearing up for the ending with Cascade as the climax. The new characters didn't appeal to me and I just didn't want to put up with new people NOW of all times. That the story surrounding the Alpha Kids was introduced with a plot so similar to a Harem Anime wherein all three of the other kids just wanted to kiss Jake on the mouth when Jake has nothing of interest going on for him whatsoever? I was NOT in the mood for that after the cosmic spectacle and tearful exits of Cascade.

I mean for god's sakes I was trying to process that all the Exiles except PM and WV were dead, and that Spades Slick tragically succumbed to his own flaws and killed the universe, AND trying to process that all the four Kids are God Tier now and JESUS you have no clue how many emotions I was riding. You expect me to give a shit about some newfangled kids whose biggest problem was they all had a crush on the same guy???