Retcon opinions

[Tarty_]

As nice as the buildup was (or most of it, the part involving Gamzee and Terezi can go and hurl itself off a cliff), the Retcon was a violation of just about every single narrative convention and not in a good way like a lot of Homestuck up until that point. It quite honestly killed my desire to read more of the story not involving Caliborn for the longest time, to say nothing of what came after.

[MorganMustDie]

Now I ain't no English teacher but please allow me to give my two cents in a pompous, professor-esque manner.

A Lot Of Incomprehensible Rambling

Show

I was a "serial" reader. I picked it up in 2013, right towards the end of Part 3. As the retcon of Part 4 was being released, I was around to read a lot of the criticism that the story was receiving as a result around the time of Vriskagram and the Hellstuck section on the lilypad before Collide and, at the time, I agreed with many of the criticisms being levied towards Andrew and the direction in which he was taking the story, because they made sense. Homestuck's character writing, at its core, was about how characters change, evolve, and better themselves with their surroundings, and that's one of the things that made people drawn so strongly to the protagonists and their struggles. They evolve in the way that real people evolve, and tackle their issues through very realistic methods (as realistic as you can get in a universe where you can kill yourself to become a pyjama god in your quest to make frogs fuck a universe into existence, at least).

The retcon felt like it undid a lot of this. Rose seems to get over her addiction just like that, Dave and Karkat seem to immediately get along rather than having to come to terms with their feelings, and Vriska does a complete 180 from the development that (Vriska) was embarking on to become a 8luh 8luh huge 8itch again. I can understand why this makes people mad, and I too felt mad at the time. But, as I've grown older, and I'd like to think wiser, I feel like I've unlocked a greater appreciation for what the retcons might have been trying to do, although whether they succeeded in this is entirely up to the reader. How did I unlock this understanding? I thought about Homestuck and how it's themes often have a habit of crossing over with one another.

Let's talk about two (and a half) characters: Vriska, Terezi and John (but just a little bit). Each of them have their own separate recurring themes which they epitomise, through their aspect, class, and general personality:
VRISKA SERKET: Violence, societal expectations, and self-improvement
TEREZI PYROPE: Free will, choice, and whether or not the two exist
(John's whole thing is freedom from the narrative but that only kinda comes up so he doesn't get a cool capitalised name)

Depending which school of philosophy you subscribe to, there are many different ways to view Terezi and her character theme of free will. However, for the purposes of my retcon opinions, the school of DETERMINISM seems to fit her best: the thought that any action, even if made under the perception of free will, is entirely determined by events that have already happened and will always occur the same way, as long as the beginning conditions remain the same. This is a textbook way to observe the CO1N FL1P, from Terezi's perspective. No matter what happens, if she allows Vriska to escape, the conditions have been set so that Vriska will always lose. And, as we discover later, if she kills Vriska, GAME OVER is sealed and the timeline is set, locked, and doomed. Terezi, under the illusion of choice, opts to kill Vriska, though, as she says herself, the coin flip is essentially useless. She would kill Vriska regardless of which way it landed, because the beginning conditions have already been set, and the interaction can only ever play out one way. Terezi convinces herself that this is free will, but truly she has no choice. Vriska dies. And the GAME OVER timeline begins. This has been your introduction to DETERMINISM IN HOMESTUCK. Please remember it.

These are the initial conditions of the GAME OVER timeline. Under these conditions, we are allowed to see characters develop and grow as they always have: Rose succumbs to addiction and has to fight it, Dave and Karkat stumble over their relationship and struggle to come to terms with their identities, and Vriska, as a ghost, is finally free of her shackled view of how she should act within an Alternian society. Through exposure to Meenah, Vriska comes to terms - even moreso than she did with John - with the fact that she doesn't have to act the way that others expect her to. She is also given an endless playground of locations, different versions of friends, and situations in which to experiment on herself and her personality. These are the perfect conditions to facilitate her character growth, and as such, her violent streak is eventually placated and she finds it in her heart to be better.

The story progresses. GAME OVER happens, and John, using his thematically granted powers of freedom (told you he'd show up), is able to change the events of the coin flip. He is able to commit an act that determinists only wish they could pull off: he travels backwards, changes the initial conditions, and alters the results. Vriska's presence post-retcon, in my view, serves less as a "character that fixes everyone's problems," and more of a sign that "the initial conditions of the environment have changed." If you follow a determinist's view of Homestuck, then you'll see a very clear distinction between your own view and the view of those who dislike the retcon: these characters have not LOST their character evolution, they have just evolved DIFFERENTLY. Because, when you change the initial conditions, all actions, choices, and events that take place afterwards are hard-wired to be different.

Far be it from me to put words in Hussie's mouth, but I believe this was, at least for his characters, the entire point being made. Dave finds it easier to come to terms with his sexuality, Terezi develops an "I'm wrong" complex, Rose and Kanaya maintain a much stronger relationship, and Vriska, without the freedom of being released from narrative importance, is forced to retain her old, 8itchy ways. Several of our characters' evolutions are negative, yes, but that is in no small way effected by the way that the INITIAL CONDITIONS have been changed. The direct surroundings of these characters have immediate and measurable impact on their health, personality, and happiness. And to boot, Hussie engineered this double-timeline "see what happens when we change the variables" situation (like the scientific method might) in a way that highlights several of Homestuck's major themes, highlighting moments that involve a great deal of questioning regarding free will, attachment to the narrative, determinism, and societal pressure.

TL;DR/IN CONCLUSION (because a lot of this was kinda hastily written prose):
The retcon serves as a vehicle for Hussie to explore how characters evolve DIFFERENTLY in different situations, depending on those who surround them, the environments they exist within, and the initial conditions of their timeline. By giving us the opportunity to see how different starting conditions can impact the way characters evolve, both positively and negatively, and actively see those timelines to their conclusions, Hussie brings up an interesting idea that many pieces of fiction don't have the capacity to touch on: do people change based on their surroundings? Or is a person's evolution hardwired into them? And by allowing characters who have been in different situations to physically interact with one another, he himself can directly contrast the ways that different life experience can shape a person into two distinctly different people.

They really did do Jade dirty though.

[Generalrabogolfo]

hhhhhhhhhh

I dont really think that's the issue here, at least to the most of us. (I dont say I'm disagreeing with you, btw; far from that, actually. I find this argument very well thought and correct)
The main issue is the how it was done, the how it was presented. We spent years seeing these characters grow with their interactions during the trip, we saw how they moved around dream bubbles and the problems they had. This is good, this makes us care about them in a natural way. Then, after the retcon, we jump to a new reality where, as you said, people has grown differently due to their surroundings changing, which, in and of itslef, is not a bad thing, the bad thing is that we did not see them change differently, we did not saw how these changes came to be. Instead we are being told about it in a 2 minutes video. A two minutes video to show three years of growth. I suppose I dont have to tell you how this is a bad thing.

In the end, Homestuck suffered from what it actively evaded at its start. It told, and didnt show.

[aspiringWatcher]

I second Sah's perspective.

The retcon was a cop-out, in my humble opinion, but John didn't do enough.

[MorganMustDie]

hhhhhhhhhh

In the end, Homestuck suffered from what it actively evaded at its start. It told, and didnt show.

I very much agree with you on this point. However, I just wanted to go about showing something interesting that the retcon gave to the comic, regardless of how well it paid off.
Considering that it was something that was done before (offshoot Dave/sprite) and after (literally the entire epilogue) I find it crazy how often this element of the retcon is quickly swept under the rug in discussions about it

[thorondraco]

hhhhhhhhhh

In the end, Homestuck suffered from what it actively evaded at its start. It told, and didnt show.

I very much agree with you on this point. However, I just wanted to go about showing something interesting that the retcon gave to the comic, regardless of how well it paid off.
Considering that it was something that was done before (offshoot Dave/sprite) and after (literally the entire epilogue) I find it crazy how often this element of the retcon is quickly swept under the rug in discussions about it

It definitely spent a lot more time talking things out.

I rather liked the epilogues though. Execution could have been better but with hussie and his deranged eldritch brain its hard to tell when he is deliberate or making mistakes, and when he is utilizing mistakes as plot points.

I see the Retcon as John literally seizing control of the narrative like Dirk did, but without the awareness that he did to begin with. Without awareness of it, the story kinda gets derailed and slower. I think that is Hussie's intent with it to begin with, but how well he accomplished it, or if it became a justification for losing steam on it all and wanting to be done with it for a time, he really only knows.

It makes sense. The shit that goes down at the end of Act 6 is the stuff John wants to go down. He wants to hang out with her friends and catch up, so they spend a lot of time talking before the final battle. He wants Davesprite to have a chance to play a part, so he does. He wants game over Rose alive again, so she becomes a sprite. He felt remorse Nepeta's death, and what happens? Nepeta is revived as a sprite too. But this is when these desires clash as it seems like the desires contradict here. Its as if hussie was still writing but was beholden to John's desires and had to work with it. I also don't think its a coincidence that the Ultimate self stuff ends up coming to light thanks to the REtcon powers. There is a link here between these forces.

And of course John wanted Vriska to be better than the person he came to know, but more so was lead to believe by Terezi that Vriska being alive would in fact help it all go better. So it went better largely through Vriska's and john's force of will colliding and empowering Vriska. To the point she is supernaturally aware of what she has to do. John basically took over Vriska when he punched her. Hell maybe even her killing Gamzee in candy is a result of her fulfilling her master's designs once gain, killing the one corrupting the timeline.

John does not have narrative awareness yet has the power to influence the narrative. It seems implied that John in Candy, despite being unable to teleport, is still a weird central point of Candy. His actions influence people around him. The only person immune to it is Karkat. And with Hs^2, its revealed that parallel aspects have certain resistances and awareness of the other, and Karkat is John's opposite. Like John has his own 'gravity' even in the black hole and Karkat is the only one resistant to its pull.
To note. Candy John somehow put the timeline INTO THE BLACK HOLE and it became a safety net to all the ghosts and Vriska. Again, things going his way without realizing it. Calliope probably knows this truth but doesn't want to tip anyone off about it.

Basically i find the Retcon fascinating in a concept though it could have been implemented better. And its creating a very interesting story now.

Then again i like the meta nature of Homestuck and I am a much newer fan to the series. I get the impression the people who are the older or even oldest fans are the ones who took to the Epilogues more negatively. They wanted resolution not more meta supernatural stuff let alone the story continuing. As a newer guy I am actually happy for more content.

I can relate to something going on and on and on and on without sight of an ending or climax. One piece man. Don't watch One piece you will spend five years catching up and the damn thing will still be unfinished.

[Darth_Energon]

I think erasing the results of FL1P was awful and is a disservice to both Terezi and Vriska

[Wing]

If you follow a determinist's view of Homestuck, then you'll see a very clear distinction between your own view and the view of those who dislike the retcon: these characters have not LOST their character evolution, they have just evolved DIFFERENTLY. Because, when you change the initial conditions, all actions, choices, and events that take place afterwards are hard-wired to be different.

This this this this this. Oh my god. You basically took the jumble of thoughts from my brain about how I coped with the retcon and put it down in a sensible format of words. This completely describes how I managed to come to terms with the retcon as seeing it as a different way the characters made it to a similar conclusion (without Game Over) and yet also changed in other ways due to their environment. Granted it would have been fantastic to SEE more of the development post retcon but I suppose that's what fanfic is for...

The main issue is the how it was done, the how it was presented. We spent years seeing these characters grow with their interactions during the trip, we saw how they moved around dream bubbles and the problems they had. This is good, this makes us care about them in a natural way. Then, after the retcon, we jump to a new reality where, as you said, people has grown differently due to their surroundings changing, which, in and of itslef, is not a bad thing, the bad thing is that we did not see them change differently, we did not saw how these changes came to be. Instead we are being told about it in a 2 minutes video. A two minutes video to show three years of growth. I suppose I dont have to tell you how this is a bad thing.

In the end, Homestuck suffered from what it actively evaded at its start. It told, and didnt show.

This touches on that point very well. The fact that perhaps handling the retcon differently could have made it more palatable.

John does not have narrative awareness yet has the power to influence the narrative. It seems implied that John in Candy, despite being unable to teleport, is still a weird central point of Candy. His actions influence people around him. The only person immune to it is Karkat. And with Hs^2, its revealed that parallel aspects have certain resistances and awareness of the other, and Karkat is John's opposite. Like John has his own 'gravity' even in the black hole and Karkat is the only one resistant to its pull.
To note. Candy John somehow put the timeline INTO THE BLACK HOLE and it became a safety net to all the ghosts and Vriska. Again, things going his way without realizing it. Calliope probably knows this truth but doesn't want to tip anyone off about it.

This is an interesting way of viewing the retcon and John's powers, though I really don't know if I agree. I suppose my reading was more that John perceived himself as being integral to the Candy timeline in how everything was his fault, but Roxy gives a good argument against that in the end. Then again, John did serve as a sort of audience eye into Candy. He reacted in ways that were more in line with how the audience may view events.


I don't know how much of this contributes but I had a lot to catch up on and wanted to add to it.

[Generalrabogolfo]

I see the Retcon as John literally seizing control of the narrative like Dirk did, but without the awareness that he did to begin with. Without awareness of it, the story kinda gets derailed and slower. I think that is Hussie's intent with it to begin with, but how well he accomplished it, or if it became a justification for losing steam on it all and wanting to be done with it for a time, he really only knows.

It makes sense. The shit that goes down at the end of Act 6 is the stuff John wants to go down. He wants to hang out with her friends and catch up, so they spend a lot of time talking before the final battle. He wants Davesprite to have a chance to play a part, so he does. He wants game over Rose alive again, so she becomes a sprite. He felt remorse Nepeta's death, and what happens? Nepeta is revived as a sprite too. But this is when these desires clash as it seems like the desires contradict here. Its as if hussie was still writing but was beholden to John's desires and had to work with it. I also don't think its a coincidence that the Ultimate self stuff ends up coming to light thanks to the REtcon powers. There is a link here between these forces.

This is a very interesting way of seeing the retcon. I must say I never even thought that John, after realizing his full retcon powers, could affect the narrative in a more metatextual way. And I like it. I like the concept of John having this kind of power because it could also mean that Dirk would know about this power, and that that's why he wants to kill him so badly.

[thorondraco]

If you follow a determinist's view of Homestuck, then you'll see a very clear distinction between your own view and the view of those who dislike the retcon: these characters have not LOST their character evolution, they have just evolved DIFFERENTLY. Because, when you change the initial conditions, all actions, choices, and events that take place afterwards are hard-wired to be different.

This this this this this. Oh my god. You basically took the jumble of thoughts from my brain about how I coped with the retcon and put it down in a sensible format of words. This completely describes how I managed to come to terms with the retcon as seeing it as a different way the characters made it to a similar conclusion (without Game Over) and yet also changed in other ways due to their environment. Granted it would have been fantastic to SEE more of the development post retcon but I suppose that's what fanfic is for...

The main issue is the how it was done, the how it was presented. We spent years seeing these characters grow with their interactions during the trip, we saw how they moved around dream bubbles and the problems they had. This is good, this makes us care about them in a natural way. Then, after the retcon, we jump to a new reality where, as you said, people has grown differently due to their surroundings changing, which, in and of itslef, is not a bad thing, the bad thing is that we did not see them change differently, we did not saw how these changes came to be. Instead we are being told about it in a 2 minutes video. A two minutes video to show three years of growth. I suppose I dont have to tell you how this is a bad thing.

In the end, Homestuck suffered from what it actively evaded at its start. It told, and didnt show.

This touches on that point very well. The fact that perhaps handling the retcon differently could have made it more palatable.

John does not have narrative awareness yet has the power to influence the narrative. It seems implied that John in Candy, despite being unable to teleport, is still a weird central point of Candy. His actions influence people around him. The only person immune to it is Karkat. And with Hs^2, its revealed that parallel aspects have certain resistances and awareness of the other, and Karkat is John's opposite. Like John has his own 'gravity' even in the black hole and Karkat is the only one resistant to its pull.
To note. Candy John somehow put the timeline INTO THE BLACK HOLE and it became a safety net to all the ghosts and Vriska. Again, things going his way without realizing it. Calliope probably knows this truth but doesn't want to tip anyone off about it.

This is an interesting way of viewing the retcon and John's powers, though I really don't know if I agree. I suppose my reading was more that John perceived himself as being integral to the Candy timeline in how everything was his fault, but Roxy gives a good argument against that in the end. Then again, John did serve as a sort of audience eye into Candy. He reacted in ways that were more in line with how the audience may view events.


I don't know how much of this contributes but I had a lot to catch up on and wanted to add to it.

He blamed himself for everything that went wrong even though he wasn't truly at fault. Shit like Jane and Gamzee were not his fault, nor the conflicts that had been brewing on Earth C for thousands of years.

But because Roxie was correct doesn't mean that John isn't correct either. Its like a mixture of people acting on their own, yet still be influenced by john too. Though that is how Dirk operates too. He can't make someone do something they would never do, he has to figure out how they work otherwise they will just shut down and flip out. Probably think they have gone bonkers. John sweeps people along with his whims and moods, but they react to this influence as they would react.

[thorondraco]

I see the Retcon as John literally seizing control of the narrative like Dirk did, but without the awareness that he did to begin with. Without awareness of it, the story kinda gets derailed and slower. I think that is Hussie's intent with it to begin with, but how well he accomplished it, or if it became a justification for losing steam on it all and wanting to be done with it for a time, he really only knows.

It makes sense. The shit that goes down at the end of Act 6 is the stuff John wants to go down. He wants to hang out with her friends and catch up, so they spend a lot of time talking before the final battle. He wants Davesprite to have a chance to play a part, so he does. He wants game over Rose alive again, so she becomes a sprite. He felt remorse Nepeta's death, and what happens? Nepeta is revived as a sprite too. But this is when these desires clash as it seems like the desires contradict here. Its as if hussie was still writing but was beholden to John's desires and had to work with it. I also don't think its a coincidence that the Ultimate self stuff ends up coming to light thanks to the REtcon powers. There is a link here between these forces.

This is a very interesting way of seeing the retcon. I must say I never even thought that John, after realizing his full retcon powers, could affect the narrative in a more metatextual way. And I like it. I like the concept of John having this kind of power because it could also mean that Dirk would know about this power, and that that's why he wants to kill him so badly.

I think it was more complicated than Dirk removing a rival. Dirk is aware of his powers and how to use them and can control when he uses them. John has no damn clue he took over the narrative. He just thinks he changed a few things and changed the outcome. Not that he had seized the narrative.

Put simply, John is dangerous. It is not directly stated but its implied that the Dissolution was happening because of John not going after Caliborn two years prior. He was breaking the timeloop because of inaction man! He is a destroying of time and space simply by sitting on his ass and being depressed. And paradox space can't make the choice invalid and doom the timeline. Its also why Candy is so dangerous too. Cause its John and thus both timelines are valid no matter how contradictory it is.

Basically John's super power doesn't seem to shut off. He thinks he can only change things when he zaps to specific parts of the timeline and narrative, not realizing he has influence on the present without zapping. The teleportation is is the biggest difference between Dirk and John outside of John like, having no idea what the hell he is doing in the most literal sense of the term.

[Wing]

This is an interesting point. I wonder how much of it is tied also to his classpect and not just the retcon powers. After all, before the retcon powers John always had a knack for getting people to go along with him. He inspires change and action in others.

EDIT: perhaps it's why metanarratively speaking he is the one who gets to retcon

[MorganMustDie]

John does not have narrative awareness yet has the power to influence the narrative. It seems implied that John in Candy, despite being unable to teleport, is still a weird central point of Candy. His actions influence people around him. The only person immune to it is Karkat. And with Hs^2, its revealed that parallel aspects have certain resistances and awareness of the other, and Karkat is John's opposite. Like John has his own 'gravity' even in the black hole and Karkat is the only one resistant to its pull.
To note. Candy John somehow put the timeline INTO THE BLACK HOLE and it became a safety net to all the ghosts and Vriska. Again, things going his way without realizing it. Calliope probably knows this truth but doesn't want to tip anyone off about it.

Basically i find the Retcon fascinating in a concept though it could have been implemented better. And its creating a very interesting story now.

Then again i like the meta nature of Homestuck and I am a much newer fan to the series. I get the impression the people who are the older or even oldest fans are the ones who took to the Epilogues more negatively. They wanted resolution not more meta supernatural stuff let alone the story continuing. As a newer guy I am actually happy for more content.

Something here stuck out to me but I'm not exactly sure what it was

There are certain characters that parallel each other in the form of "shit goes my way without realising it" storytelling. Caliborn and John are both incredibly powerful players, especially when they reach the god tiers, shown through John's power over the narrative and Caliborn's general lord-hood. Hussie builds a sixth dimension: the narrative.
In the same way that time literally bends to Caliborn/Lord English's will without him having to think or be aware of it, the narrative bends to John's without his active participation. For whatever reason, Alt!Calliope doesn't care about John's control over a fundamental dimension of Homestuck, she practically outright ignores it. She is drawn to stopping Lord English because his control over the narrative is destructive, ignores John's because his is mostly in service of the greater good, but suddenly takes issue with Dirk, who - despite theoretically causing harm to other individuals for his own ends - has not performed any true destruction to the timeline/narrative/whathaveyou himself

If the point of the retcon was to give John the same power over the narrative that Dirk has, what is different about Dirk's control that's so dangerous? Should we trust Calliope's word?

Also strange that you say that the older readers are the ones who disliked the epilogues, since I seem to find the opposite. At least what I saw was newer readers who weren't used to Hussie dropping depression bombs abhor the Epilogues, whereas older readers reacted with a tone of, to quote John Mulaney, "yep, same shit as always!"

[thorondraco]

John does not have narrative awareness yet has the power to influence the narrative. It seems implied that John in Candy, despite being unable to teleport, is still a weird central point of Candy. His actions influence people around him. The only person immune to it is Karkat. And with Hs^2, its revealed that parallel aspects have certain resistances and awareness of the other, and Karkat is John's opposite. Like John has his own 'gravity' even in the black hole and Karkat is the only one resistant to its pull.
To note. Candy John somehow put the timeline INTO THE BLACK HOLE and it became a safety net to all the ghosts and Vriska. Again, things going his way without realizing it. Calliope probably knows this truth but doesn't want to tip anyone off about it.

Basically i find the Retcon fascinating in a concept though it could have been implemented better. And its creating a very interesting story now.

Then again i like the meta nature of Homestuck and I am a much newer fan to the series. I get the impression the people who are the older or even oldest fans are the ones who took to the Epilogues more negatively. They wanted resolution not more meta supernatural stuff let alone the story continuing. As a newer guy I am actually happy for more content.

Something here stuck out to me but I'm not exactly sure what it was

There are certain characters that parallel each other in the form of "shit goes my way without realising it" storytelling. Caliborn and John are both incredibly powerful players, especially when they reach the god tiers, shown through John's power over the narrative and Caliborn's general lord-hood. Hussie builds a sixth dimension: the narrative.
In the same way that time literally bends to Caliborn/Lord English's will without him having to think or be aware of it, the narrative bends to John's without his active participation. For whatever reason, Alt!Calliope doesn't care about John's control over a fundamental dimension of Homestuck, she practically outright ignores it. She is drawn to stopping Lord English because his control over the narrative is destructive, ignores John's because his is mostly in service of the greater good, but suddenly takes issue with Dirk, who - despite theoretically causing harm to other individuals for his own ends - has not performed any true destruction to the timeline/narrative/whathaveyou himself

If the point of the retcon was to give John the same power over the narrative that Dirk has, what is different about Dirk's control that's so dangerous? Should we trust Calliope's word?

Also strange that you say that the older readers are the ones who disliked the epilogues, since I seem to find the opposite. At least what I saw was newer readers who weren't used to Hussie dropping depression bombs abhor the Epilogues, whereas older readers reacted with a tone of, to quote John Mulaney, "yep, same shit as always!"

We've definitely seen different sides then. I think the new guys probably got through murderstuck and game over knowing there is more story. The bleakish tone in the peilogues without certainty of more after probably impacted them.

Personally? I think alt Calliope is retcon born. She exists because of John's weird emotional subconscious influence. A weapon to destroy Lord English, but at the cost of the very reality that was bending over backwards to suck his dick. So she exists because of John and the events created by his and Terezi's actions.

I generally believe there was a version of these events where Lord English won it all. But they were overwritten completely the moment John gained Retcon powers. The juju is essential yes but not the retcon powers. Mainly cause Dave exists and can timetravel. So John changed a lot. The question is where the major change was at that lead to John gaining retcon powers occurred, and if there was other parties involved that will eventually reveal themselves. Personally I think it was Vriska throwing a tantrum. She threw the juju onto the ground and allowed someone to shove their hand into it. It could have been Hussie realizing it was the only chance to do anything about English, or another party that let her hear the narration.

In the end Calliope not only let John die but is fucking hellbent on ensuring he remains deceased. I would say that Dirk has ambition which makes him a more immediate threat, and has narrative awareness to utilize his power as sees fit. John does not have narrative awareness but, apparently, has no control at all over his narrative influence. He arguably nearly destroyed Paradox space as we know it simply being depressed and not going after Caliborn. I can't help but think his number was up as far as the mysterious forces of Paradox space was concerened and both Dirk and Calliope acted as executioners.

[MorganMustDie]

Personally? I think alt Calliope is retcon born. She exists because of John's weird emotional subconscious influence. A weapon to destroy Lord English, but at the cost of the very reality that was bending over backwards to suck his dick. So she exists because of John and the events created by his and Terezi's actions.

I generally believe there was a version of these events where Lord English won it all. But they were overwritten completely the moment John gained Retcon powers. The juju is essential yes but not the retcon powers. Mainly cause Dave exists and can timetravel. So John changed a lot. The question is where the major change was at that lead to John gaining retcon powers occurred, and if there was other parties involved that will eventually reveal themselves. Personally I think it was Vriska throwing a tantrum. She threw the juju onto the ground and allowed someone to shove their hand into it. It could have been Hussie realizing it was the only chance to do anything about English, or another party that let her hear the narration.

I question what you could even define as "Lord English wins."

The way he is described by Doc Scratch, you could surmise that there are many, many Lord Englishes; a version of him enters a universe, ensures that the building blocks for his existence across time are ensured and in place, destroys that universe, and then moves on, or that version of him ceases to exist. And we do see him work this way, the main Lord English that we face is Universe A's version, Union Jack is Universe B's version, and, depending on which theory you prescribe to, Caliborn/Dirk is Universe C's version. Only one of these gets to stick around long enough to make it past step 2, however.

However, Caliborn cannot exist without Universe C. Ergo, Lord English cannot exist without Universe C. Universe C cannot exist without the retcon. And thus, Lord English can not exist without the retcon. A timeline without the retcon is one where Lord English fails to ensure his own existence, fails to fulfill the time loop, and thusly fails to exist. So even if you view the retcon as time finally fighting back and not fellating Lord English for once, it still plays a major role in creating his existence, whereas a lack of a retcon would ensure that Lord English continues to be non-existent.

So, I don't think Lord English (at least, our Lord English, the Universe A one that we come to fear and fight against) CAN be victorious. The only timeline in which he properly ensures his own existence is the post-retcon timeline, and he is still ultimately defeated. His entire presence is entirely based on whether or not he can manipulate time enough to make him exist, meaning there has to be one set, proper timeline that creates him. There might be an infinite number of Lord Englishes in different universes, but each of those Lord Englishes is confined to the single timeline in which he can create himself.

In essence, the retcon doesn't sacrifice the timeline sucking Caliborn's dick. It sacrifices a doomed timeline to keep the dick-sucking going.

[rookie1978]

I second Sah's perspective.

The retcon was a cop-out, in my humble opinion, but John didn't do enough.

the only things john actually 'did', he had to be told to do

[thorondraco]

Personally? I think alt Calliope is retcon born. She exists because of John's weird emotional subconscious influence. A weapon to destroy Lord English, but at the cost of the very reality that was bending over backwards to suck his dick. So she exists because of John and the events created by his and Terezi's actions.

I generally believe there was a version of these events where Lord English won it all. But they were overwritten completely the moment John gained Retcon powers. The juju is essential yes but not the retcon powers. Mainly cause Dave exists and can timetravel. So John changed a lot. The question is where the major change was at that lead to John gaining retcon powers occurred, and if there was other parties involved that will eventually reveal themselves. Personally I think it was Vriska throwing a tantrum. She threw the juju onto the ground and allowed someone to shove their hand into it. It could have been Hussie realizing it was the only chance to do anything about English, or another party that let her hear the narration.

I question what you could even define as "Lord English wins."

The way he is described by Doc Scratch, you could surmise that there are many, many Lord Englishes; a version of him enters a universe, ensures that the building blocks for his existence across time are ensured and in place, destroys that universe, and then moves on, or that version of him ceases to exist. And we do see him work this way, the main Lord English that we face is Universe A's version, Union Jack is Universe B's version, and, depending on which theory you prescribe to, Caliborn/Dirk is Universe C's version. Only one of these gets to stick around long enough to make it past step 2, however.

However, Caliborn cannot exist without Universe C. Ergo, Lord English cannot exist without Universe C. Universe C cannot exist without the retcon. And thus, Lord English can not exist without the retcon. A timeline without the retcon is one where Lord English fails to ensure his own existence, fails to fulfill the time loop, and thusly fails to exist. So even if you view the retcon as time finally fighting back and not fellating Lord English for once, it still plays a major role in creating his existence, whereas a lack of a retcon would ensure that Lord English continues to be non-existent.

So, I don't think Lord English (at least, our Lord English, the Universe A one that we come to fear and fight against) CAN be victorious. The only timeline in which he properly ensures his own existence is the post-retcon timeline, and he is still ultimately defeated. His entire presence is entirely based on whether or not he can manipulate time enough to make him exist, meaning there has to be one set, proper timeline that creates him. There might be an infinite number of Lord Englishes in different universes, but each of those Lord Englishes is confined to the single timeline in which he can create himself.

In essence, the retcon doesn't sacrifice the timeline sucking Caliborn's dick. It sacrifices a doomed timeline to keep the dick-sucking going.

That is presuming that the Retcon isn't a dangerous reality altering force that nearly destroyed paradox space becuase it was owned by a depress sadboi who didn't feel like hunting down Caliborn. Something that can't be controlled by the normal means of their reality.

Literally every display we see because of the Retcon is meant to portray the story being altered. Canon being usurped.

Basically here is how i think it was supposed to go. Vriska didn't open the Juju and John and everyone barreled into an ambush millions of years into the making. The Empress easily subdues everyone and forces them all to make Univesre C. She then makes the eight human kids go into the future under the false information that Lord english appears there. Dirk has time powers so he would only need a time he needs to travel too. No choice, they travel, get separated, wreck Caliborn.

The ghost army stuff happens sans Davepeta's intervention and when the Beta kids are summoned... they are just slaughtered. They struggled so much with Lord english tired by the fight and robbed of the Green sun, with one of them being an adult. With the Green sun not destroyed by Alt Calliope who either never gets the signal or, even worse, Doesn't even exist, they just lose. They are obliterated. Maybe some survivors flee to the depths of the void. Calliope is killed by Lord english and he reigns on in his own post canon, the devil haunting paradox space. I doubt the white sword is much use when it won't be able to scratch him because of being green sun jacked.

Basically they had all the tools they needed to complete the timeloop without retcon powers....

Actually a line from the homestuck squared thing sums my point up perfectly.

DIRK: One which will be of our own creation, but which by all practical considerations might as well have always been there.

DIRK: And if we're successful, the distinction won't be significant enough to matter to just about anybody.

Basically Dirk intends to hijack a session and mold it to his own designs, and because of his narrative influence, he can make it like it was ALWAYS meant to go that way. John did the same. To the normal eye it looks like the Retcon was always meant to be. But a retcon is an alteration to the past of a story. And thus, it had to overwrite the prior form of events.

Like think if Vader wasn't luke's father actually because George lucas decided against it. We would never know that Vader was meant to be Luke's father, would we?

I would also note, it is completely against the mechanics of paradox space for a Doomed timeline to start overwhelming canon. And in addition, nothing ever appears that isn't completely within the Narrative's control. Retcon powers are not in its control at all and usurp control. To the point that it literally risks destroying or overwriting reality itself cause of a poor sadboi's depression.

[MorganMustDie]

So, as fascinating an idea as a lot of that is, I don't really see much in-text evidence supporting a different way that things could have potentially gone. The idea of John's retcon powers literally influencing the past, present, and future of the narrative in the way that you're describing them might hold more weight if actual text, events or already written content was actually physically changed to match John's interests (by which I mean, like, Hussie going back to erase other moments of Homestuck to replace them with more John-friendly ones)

This interpretation calls into question: is the Game Over timeline still canon? Just because John went back to change the things that happened leading up to it, those events still occurred, and were experienced, and read by us, and they were relevant to the story as a whole, so John going back to reset things doesn't exactly negate their importance or canoninity in any concrete, inarguable way. As such, especially with the focus simply being "things go differently if the starting conditions are different," it's not so much that "the retcon takes bad things and makes them non-canonical," but moreso "the retcon shows us different, canon ways that things could turn out."

Basically they had all the tools they needed to complete the timeloop without retcon powers....

Except that we literally see how the timeline goes without the retcon powers. That's the entire point of the Game Over timeline. Here, you're talking about how the timeline still would have been fulfilled if the kids had lost during Collide, but the events of Collide can never occur without the retcon influence in the first place.
There is also a lot of evidence supporting the idea that GO is not a doomed timeline taking over the narrative, but a timeline that it was necessary to doom in order to preserve the narrative. Paradox space, the denizens, the horrorterrors, all had a hand in dooming this timeline as planned, so that John could achieve narrative control and execute everything else that was necessary to bring English down. Given that Paradox Space seems to plan every single little thing down to the detail, backwards and forwards, forever, I'd argue that this isn't a case of a doomed timeline overwhelming canon, but a doomed timeline that's been intentionally MADE canon in order to fit into the Grand Plan Of Everything

[Dream Muttman]

Sorry if I'm a bit late to the party on this, but in response to claims that the retcon was a means of showing the deterministic consequences of people placed in different situations: The comic already had plenty of avenues to explore this with, in the dancestors and both instances of the scratch. Part of what makes the retcon noxious is it decouples the characters from their interactions with the ghosts that had most recently shown us this (in a really shallow and underwritten way). There was room for a direct Meenah/Condesce comparison, but that never rendered fruit and the Condesce was allowed to stay underdeveloped up to the end.

I'd also argue the comic doesn't actually believe in nurture over nature, overall. By the end, it believes in ultimate selves with esoteric effects on characters' development and personality, and it believes in intrinsic characteristics that have nothing to do with what the characters want or have worked for or have had their environment push them towards (See Karkat be made into a running gag about wimpiness). Karkat is a "born peace-time king" just because, not because of formative experiences.

[thorondraco]

So, as fascinating an idea as a lot of that is, I don't really see much in-text evidence supporting a different way that things could have potentially gone. The idea of John's retcon powers literally influencing the past, present, and future of the narrative in the way that you're describing them might hold more weight if actual text, events or already written content was actually physically changed to match John's interests (by which I mean, like, Hussie going back to erase other moments of Homestuck to replace them with more John-friendly ones)

This interpretation calls into question: is the Game Over timeline still canon? Just because John went back to change the things that happened leading up to it, those events still occurred, and were experienced, and read by us, and they were relevant to the story as a whole, so John going back to reset things doesn't exactly negate their importance or canoninity in any concrete, inarguable way. As such, especially with the focus simply being "things go differently if the starting conditions are different," it's not so much that "the retcon takes bad things and makes them non-canonical," but moreso "the retcon shows us different, canon ways that things could turn out."

Basically they had all the tools they needed to complete the timeloop without retcon powers....

Except that we literally see how the timeline goes without the retcon powers. That's the entire point of the Game Over timeline. Here, you're talking about how the timeline still would have been fulfilled if the kids had lost during Collide, but the events of Collide can never occur without the retcon influence in the first place.
There is also a lot of evidence supporting the idea that GO is not a doomed timeline taking over the narrative, but a timeline that it was necessary to doom in order to preserve the narrative. Paradox space, the denizens, the horrorterrors, all had a hand in dooming this timeline as planned, so that John could achieve narrative control and execute everything else that was necessary to bring English down. Given that Paradox Space seems to plan every single little thing down to the detail, backwards and forwards, forever, I'd argue that this isn't a case of a doomed timeline overwhelming canon, but a doomed timeline that's been intentionally MADE canon in order to fit into the Grand Plan Of Everything

Dude there is a lot of theories we have and things we understand about paradox space that aren't clearly stated by the comic nor hussie. This one is especially abstract because we make the mistake of seeing what was written as always meaning to be that way rather than being suspicious of Paradox space's true form. There is a Great Lie hidden here. The great lie of paradox space. And no there is copious amounts of evidence that the Empress had a fully detailed plan ready for this entire thing. The thing is even in the absence of the retcon there is no reason to think the timeloop could not be completed because they have a time player. If dave did not exist, then yea obviously the only option is retcon.

Basically think of it as hussie had the outline for the ending written out. It was very nihilistic. So basically John gained the power to hack into Hussie's theoretical google documents, and backspaced all the story up to a certain point and added a new version of these events including them winning in the end.

That is effectively what i am saying. The foreshadowing of their predestined defeat was everywhere. Their doom was certain. And it took a power that is literally at nausea repeatedly stated repeatedly, that it alters the narrative, to make them able to win in the end. At the cost of what stability remained of paradox space. And only because someone from the void suddenly appeared and wreck shit.

You are also forgetting that the narrative control of Paradox space weakens in the Furthest ring. Not gone completely for sure but its hold is weaker. Its why ghosts from erased timelines like Gameover can still exist. So its no surprise that is where the juju gives John power at. Where the Paradox's arbitrary demands have the least hold.

Basically the very existence of the power to manipulate the Narrative, reality basically, puts doubts on the true nature of paradox space. Cause it means it is malleable to those who can command it. It shows that the Grand plan may be a total farce.

Also i will admit likely some greater manipulators were involved. But i think there re only two options especially as my theory on the non retcon session, breaks FAR less rules than the Retcon does.

Either A, the horror terrors were behind this and wanted to create the black hole for some purpose. And or another party altogether.

or B, Lord english was such a major error in their 'grand plan' that they had to eliminate him at all costs and so empowered someone with the ability to manipulate reality. The ultimate cost, was the Furthest ring and thus most of reality itself. It wouldn't be surprised that whomever is behind it empowered Hussie as a narrator and author, and hussie fucked up royally. So they were desperate to reset everything.

And as i linked, the scary part of these Narrative powers is that it can appear that by all intents and purposes, it can appear as if things were always supposed to go that way when in reality someone snuck in and changed things and made the story go differently. Which is Dirk's plan now to do with the Sburb session. In a sense to create the illusion that they were already there.