So this is a long one, so long that I don't really feel that I can talk about every single aspect within these three posts without either repeating something that either I or somebody else has already said. So I'm going to kind of half-cherrypick the bits that I feel provide new information that I can comment or expand on further. Please take my responses to others thus far in consideration with this one.
Admittedly, a lot of these questions felt a bit rhetorical, like there wasn't really much to be stated with it. This isn't taking the piss out of you, but it does make reading these posts kind of hard to navigate in terms of where the actual point lies. Let it be known that I'm trying my best, here.
burnt2ashleys wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:44 pm
So, why, then, is the story subscribing to Homestuck's style when there is no reason for such limitation, and the story would so greatly benefit from changing it (and here I remind you that this would also solve the dissonant
lusii/denizen designs, killing a multitude of birds with a pebble)?
You sort of said it yourself, and while I have explained the intricacies of why VE's art is the way it is in some manners earlier in the thread. The question still reamins of why we confine ourselves to this general style when there is really no need for us to do so and we have since proven that we can do much more? There's a long answer and a short answer for this but I'm pretty sure that I'm going to be doing a lot of typing here so I'm going to opt for the shorter answer.
From the very update you took that picture from, it's disjointed styllistically to an off-putting degree. All at the service of an eternal guardian's power and the view of a television set. Why do you suppose this is? Even Homestuck itself has a fluid art form, taking to Andrew's whims. Granted them being ANDREW'S whims is an important distinction, but within Homestuck itself these styles have been noted as being "symbolic renderings". It may very well be the case, that the use of this style falls under similar circumstances. That what we currently view the comic as is not how things ACTUALLY ARE, but how we are "meant to be seeing" them. But that choice wasn't made by you. It's something to consider moving forward.
burnt2ashleys wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:54 pm
Why trolls? A simple question, for sure, but let's elaborate. As far as I've ascertained, there has been no unique characteristic of the Homestuck trolls that has been needed for Vast Error. The design could have been swapped out, the race's name changed, and I'm almost sure that this wouldn't have impacted the story and its themes or message. Alternian trolls' most discerning characteristics are the designs (which are easily recognizable thanks to Andrew's artistic skills), and its society, which yields unique dynamics between characters, the former which isn't needed here (hence the question), and the latter is null given the setting is built from the ground up (more on that in a bit). Other characteristics, like quadrants, dynamics between castes and psionics are also reworked, so why still take from Homestuck when there is more benefit to be found in originality (both in the story as well as its art)?
Trolls were chosen because it gives an accessible idea for those who associate themselves with Homestuck to jump onto, while also allowing us a frame of reference to change and work into our own work and the isolated universe they are the only current inhabitants of. VE is a commentary on Homestuck and the ideas and works of itself and Homestuck's fanbase. So taking what was at the time one of the most malleable aspects of the comic, as well as undoubtedly the most popular, and utilizing them for our own benefit was a no-brainer. Not doing this at least to some extent would pretty much undermine the entire operation. We could have used fankids or cherubs, but trolls are objectively the reason people came to this comic in droves.
We could have also gone for a completely original species, or we could have stuck to the Alternian framework, but frankly these are characters made from the basis of fantroll tropes. Changing them into something besides trolls kind of defeats the purpose of even doing an MSPA at all with this idea in play. And if we wanted to stick to the Alternian frame, there's more than enough of that floating around in a sea of canonical and dubiously canonical official work. Not to mention there is a lot of ideas with trolls that frankly don't come to pass, especially when you consider how many ideas that fans (including us) have had about them over the years that were simply never right to begin with, or were never expanded upon or integrated in a meaningful way. Repiton, while fundamentally different, allows another way to look at the species and what it could have been. We even run with the joke that trolls are "nothing but gray humans" that people have claimed pretty much since forever.
Also, Beforus DID exist, so it's not like the concept is ENTIRELY new either. We just crank it up a notch or twelve.
The second point I'd like to address is the setting: 50000 people? Really? That's less than most population centers on Earth! That's not enough inhabitants to do anything! Really, I don't think advanced civilization is possible with only 50000 citizens. Human civilization has never dipped that low, for crying out loud! How many of these trolls are working class? Or is everything automatized?
We know through context and also through Snowbound Blood (the canonical prequel visual novel) that it's essentially a mix of the fully automized processes and sci-fi/alien bullshit and the remaining trolls who create and ensure they function, hired and spread by Corporate to keep everything in check. 50,000 is dreadfully low for an entire planet, but we also know through these sources that it was a slow decline through the ages and that Repitonians have evolved and found methods of handling things feasibly to compensate for the drastic population loss.
In Homestuck, you're not told how the relationship between the kids start, but you're shown the dynamics between them, and they function well enough that you care for them, even though you don't really know much about them. This is not the case for Vast Error. The relationship between the first 2 characters introduced, Arcjec and Tazsia, is only hinted at in the (arguably unnecessary) repitonian quadrant section of the story, and we still have relationships which have simply not been shown thus far, but that we are told exist. Because of this, we enter "Eight Deadly Words" territory ("I don't care what happens to these people"), the dynamics between the characters aren't interesting enough to make a lasting impression (not only on me, but on others I've talked to about VE).
Firstly, I wouldn't call the expansion on Repitonian romance to be at all unnecessary. It's the next logical step of the original Homestuck joke that quadrants played with (I.E that character shipping always falls into these specific catagories), an exploration at the fandom tinged concept of "OTP's" and "Soulmate AU's", as well as generally being a deeper look at how these trolls concept love and sexuality (specifically the enforced old hussian rhetoric that all trolls are bi/pansexual without exception) in a manner that can be allegorical and doesn't have to cough up the usual terminology to make a point. It's probably one of the most important facets of Repitonian worldbuilding as it currently stands, and I don't think the comic would be the same without it.
As far as cast relationships on the whole are concerned? Functionally, VE is not about the constant organic build when it comes to how its characters are presented and how beats of their stories play out, and if that isn't your cup of tea, that's more than fine. But the way you phrase it here makes it sound as though it's lesser to Homestuck in this capacity. A major component of the comic is comparing the relationships of the cast as they are now at 17-19, to how they were when they were younger, the ripe age of 13. The most formative years of your life, according to the source material. Obviously, their relationships have long since been established and changed in real ways, and a part of the reason it should be engaging is to find out the extent of how deep that rabbit hole goes. How the cast feels about these changes before, during and after the fact throughout the comics run. Finding other questions and ideas that can be gleaned from the information you get as the comic goes on and you learn more, then retroactively looking at old pieces of information with new context.
Questions in VE are designed to be questions, it's purposefully told in a manner that doesn't allow you to see things that happen in any consistent pace. It's all about seeing something, and then a question about it gets answered. Which leads to more questions, and then eventually it gets answered too. Which then, in of itself, spurs even more questions. It's a proliferation of intrigue, as a friend of mine once said. I like the term.
Speaking of answering questions...
burnt2ashleys wrote: ↑Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:09 pm
You (you) might be wondering where it is that I got the information regarding this particular webcomic setting's population? That's an interesting question, and whose answer I got, not from the comic, but from extraneous sources (other people who I've discussed VE with, and a video from the "optimistic Duelist" YouTube channel). Why am I calling this forth? Amongst the problems that I've personally seen that the narrative is afflicted by, this "tell the readers of something, but don't show them" problem is only exacerbated by the spoilers and extra information that are only accessible if you're either in the Vast Error Discord server or some other similar place where a member of the staff is present.
This was brought into question earlier in the thread by this nice guy who I definitely want to invite to my next birthday party. I'm sure he's great with kids too.
Darth_Energon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:01 pm
I'm amazed how loose they are with spoilers, honestly. It's kinda sad.
This is true, I do give a lot of extra details on other platforms such as the VE Discord, Tumblr, Twitter, the VE Team/VEMT, and to the people I peer review the comic with. I already did a big answer about why I think "show don't tell" is kind of a dumb rule on the whole, so lets just focus on the fact that I say things that technically aren't in the comic yet.
A lot of what I say on these various other avenues are more extrapolation than any legitimate spoilers. Many things in this comic don't have a reason to come up naturally because they either will only be mentioned much later or they simply just don't matter. Why did I give away the dream sways and classpects of the main cast? Well, you all know dreamselves and all the various classpects exist and there isn't anything new stirring that specific pot. How they're handled is much more important than the fact that they exist here. Why did I tell people the names of the ancestors? Well, they're just titles and they don't really say too much about who they are or what important shit that they did. Why did I talk about Repiton's population and how reduplication works? Because I don't think we're going to get a major debriefing on it in canon, therefore, paratext is the answer. (Also it WAS mentioned and explained in Snowbound Blood, a lot of things are mentioned in Snowbound Blood.)
As for things that don't fall under this specific purview of the situation, it also stands to reason that a majority of what I say, even as word of god, isn't always the truth! There have been multiple times where I simply play up things for jokes, omit key details, smother everything in indulgent crypticism or just flat out fucking lie. The reader hostility of VE is another major component of itself, from the questions of how close it is to Homestuck proper to the quirks of the cast, to the interpretation of how and why the events happened. I may have authority and the means to sway reader opinion, to influence the people at large, but the question is really if you should even believe me.
I will say however, that despite the subtext always being there; the information that Arcjec and Ellsee are as close to siblings as trolls can feasibly be was tactical on our end. The less incest porn I know exists? The better. If that costs us a twist (which VE isn't focused on anyways), so be it.
I'm honestly no better a source of information THAN the comic proper, or any other fan. Because my thoughts and opinions change all the time, and I have my own biases that others may not agree with. It's up to the reader what they want to look up and what they want to take from this story, regardless of where or what it is. There is only so much responsibility placed on the VE team in that regard. You may call this unprofessional, but until I sign some proper documents and start making a salary? I have absolutely no obligation to keep quiet. Plus, you try sitting on a comic for almost a decade and keeping your lips shut the whole time. There is no reason for us to be as uptight and secretive about VE as Andrew was with HS. Honestly, if anything, I think it's been very good for us to talk this much while we have the chance.
VE is a comic that is focused more on it's archival ends than its serialized means. But in doing this, there has to be things that keep serialized readers invested. The comic alone is enough for thousands of readers out there, but I don't think it's a crime or a blemish on the record of the comic to expand upon what exists and what's to come.
I think that about wraps everything up. I've actually really enjoyed being on the Forums again thus far, it feels like the first time I've been able to actually respond to critique in a manner that isn't either on the spot or taken out of context. Which I'm sure some of these posts will surely be in the future regardless. I think I just like listening to myself talk, lmao.
