THE DIRKCOURSE THREAD

[Leddy]

I loved his arc in the comic- about how a socially inept fugitive of his own mind has to work and overcome every single 'splinter' and version of himself, just so that he can accept who he is, and disregard what he's 'fated' to be. Every individual personality set aside just so Dirk could be his own.

And then the epilogues and by extension HS^2 ruin literally every part of that, because after all his time cementing himself as just being dirk and not being any of the other versions of himself, he apparently suddenly decided all the other dirks and versions were fine and accepted literally every awful Dirk into his own essence to become an 'ultimate self' and literally make himself the bad guy.

Don't get me wrong. The direction they're going with a self-imposed villain character simply playing the villain to extend his own existence with power over the narrative itself is really interesting- but making Dirk that villain literally trashed his entire character. This is not the Dirk we met in Homestuck. It never will be.

Can I shout this enough?

He got turned so far around from his arc and while it's at least technically in character, unlike Jane's xenophobic dictatorship or Jade's sudden lustiness at like everything, it's such an unsatisfying way to do things with his character. It's trashed his character and I CAN'T like Post-Epilouges Dirk, even though he was growing fond on me Pre-Epilouges, finally a second Alpha kid after Roxy to have a really interesting character for me but nope, take that growth he had and shove it out of the way so he can be the villain and betray his arc!

[nonsenseMnemonic]

^ agreeing with all that, and would like to add: one of my favorite things about Dirk and Bro in the comic was their ambiguity.
They were both heroes. Dirk spearheads most of the action in his session, Bro helps Dave in his session and dies fighting Jack. And, separate from those roles, they both do shitty things to people they care about. Whether or not they are fundamentally or morally good people is a debate in contrast to their heroism. It was interesting both as a "don't meet your heroes" thing and as a question of importance/necessity vs personality/means (sorta similar to some of the questions that come up with Vriska as well).
The Epilogues don't really follow any of that. Dirk's a bad person and a villain. Neither is ambiguous, and much of it doesn't really follow through with his shortcomings in the comic. Manipulating and abusing Jake? Yeah, sure, that lines up. Do misogyny and transphobia make as much sense for him? Imo, no, they don't add much to him or present interesting questions about gender or whatever. Feels like a lot of it's there to make sure we understand that he really genuinely sucks vs being there to be interesting or make a point.
Idk, re: above posts I agree that his villainy doesn't make sense character-wise for the Dirk that we got to know, but I also feel like it doesn't make sense as a follow-up to a more general look at his role in the comic.
Really just disappointed at how this turned out and at the fact that this is the Dirk we all have to go with if we want to bother sticking with HS in the future.

[PilotBlackSmith]

Dirk is right, acts 1-5 are peak homestuck and most of everything after is peak SHIT.
reject modernity
embrace tradition

[Flame_Warp]

Manipulating and abusing Jake? Yeah, sure, that lines up.

I don't even know that that's true. Yes, Dirk's relationship with Jake was unhealthy, but it was unhealthy because Dirk wasn't able to get out of his own head enough to be emotionally available, not because he wanted to beat Jake up and infantilize him because Dirk thought he was a shitty loser. Like, that fell apart because of him, and actually-complex-pre-epilogue-Dirk knew that shit. But no, no, he has to be a villain, so just like Jane he's going to abuse the shit out of Jake for no reason, and lose all of the self-awareness that made him interesting. Except also he totally still wants to smooch Jake and makes drawings of them making out

HS2 is proving promising but MAN that rubs me a million times the wrong way. If they seriously just gloss over the way Ult!Dirk treated Jake in the epilogues for 'he's still just a pining gay baby uwu' imma smash something

[Flame_Warp]

Dirk is right, acts 1-5 are peak homestuck and most of everything after is peak SHIT.
reject modernity
embrace tradition

Can you really call it 'tradition' when act 5+ (because let's be real, by act 5 all the pieces were in place for act 6 to have the tone it did) takes up more than 4/5 of the comic

[nonsenseMnemonic]

Manipulating and abusing Jake? Yeah, sure, that lines up.

I don't even know that that's true. Yes, Dirk's relationship with Jake was unhealthy, but it was unhealthy because Dirk wasn't able to get out of his own head enough to be emotionally available, not because he wanted to beat Jake up and infantilize him because Dirk thought he was a shitty loser. Like, that fell apart because of him, and actually-complex-pre-epilogue-Dirk knew that shit. But no, no, he has to be a villain, so just like Jane he's going to abuse the shit out of Jake for no reason, and lose all of the self-awareness that made him interesting. Except also he totally still wants to smooch Jake and makes drawings of them making out

HS2 is proving promising but MAN that rubs me a million times the wrong way. If they seriously just gloss over the way Ult!Dirk treated Jake in the epilogues for 'he's still just a pining gay baby uwu' imma smash something

Yeah, you're right actually, DirkJake wasn't a healthy pairing in the comic but you're right I don't think Dirk ever wanted to hurt Jake. "Misguided, not malicious" I think summarizes a lot of the stuff he did. Or if not misguided, something along the lines of selfishness and obliviousness. not so much sadism. It was a big leap from that to the Epilogues.

I want to treat HS^2 as its own thing without damning it entirely based on the baggage of HS & the Epis, but idk, that baggage exists and is gonna follow 2 no matter what. I just don't think I'll be able to enjoy it while Dirk's like this. I really liked him before.
And yeah, I'm worried about Jake being bullied or hurt more on account of not being smart, and that not really being addressed properly. Equally worried about that with Tavros -- I think their abuse and the way people talk about it shares a lot of similarities -- but that's probably not Dirkcourse.

[ThePungeonMaster]

Ultimate Dirk isn't going to end up being the BBEG:
Let me explain.
I've seen a lot of people in the Dirkourse thread saying that Dirk post epilogues ruined his arc, and I'm inclined to agree with that. Dirk's entire struggle was him separating himself from his splinters like Bro, and AR, who he saw as obnoxious, abusive, manipulative, and even evil. And yes, him wanting to attain ultimate self, fully reuniting with all his shitty splinters is a complete 180 from his goal in Homestuck. But it's more interesting to ask why that happened than to simply state that Dirk's arc got thrown out the window. We already know that the change to Dirk's personality wasn't done just to make Dirk a villain, as brain ghost Dirk in candy isn't the massive puppeteering asshole we see in meat, so it's evident the writers have special plans for the particular iteration we see in meat besides just turning him into a villain. It has some storytelling significance for Dirk to embrace his role as a villain.
In fact, I'd say his turn towards villainy is a result of him achieving ultimate self, not that him achieving ultimate self is a result of him suddenly turning into a villain. The fact that Bro, AR, and all other Dirk variations and splinters have been melded into his consciousness is likely what made him think that assuming the role of a hero is impossible: That he's too far gone, and that villainy is the only path, the only way out.
So I believe that Dirk is being manipulated by someone who has stake in keeping the story going, a villain unbeknownst to us but obsessed with relevance nonetheless. We already know that Dirk achieving ultimate self was done under special, unknown, conditions, as he was the only one to keep his human form, the first one to do it, and the only character we don't get to see do it. This paired with the fact that, as discussed earlier, I don't think Dirk would even want to achieve ultimate self willingly.

Aight so I posted this to the speculation thread for HS2 but it also fits here so

[egg]

Dirk Strider clearly made a few people fail No Nut November in the latest update, clearly an unforgivable sin.

[Dream Muttman]

Snip for space

Can you really call it 'tradition' when act 5+ (because let's be real, by act 5 all the pieces were in place for act 6 to have the tone it did) takes up more than 4/5 of the comic

I'm not sure what you mean. In no way did Act 5 set up Act 6's tone. The three year wait is set up during Act 6's first intermission. If anything Act 6 went against Act 5, specifically Hivebent's, setup of how introducing new characters and their session would work.

[Billy]

starting this off:
Dirk? yes or no.

much like immortality, yes, but only conditionally

Honestly? Dirk's kind of tragic.
This is a guy who spent his whole life trying not to become a bad person despite the universe seemingly telling him he had no choice.
And then it turns out, if he wants him and his friends to continue existing in a way that is narratively relevant (so not cotton candy nuclear family fascist jane bara karkat hell), he HAS to. He HAS to be the villain for all of his friends to be the heroes. And he's willing to do that because he's a guy who thinks nothing of self sacrifice. If he has to have his head cut off to defeat Jack, so be it.

dirk is absolutely tragic, but I don't think it's for exactly this reason. the thing is, he doesn't have to do any of this. the events of the candy epilogue are not, never were, and will never be an inevitability. they're the result of the choices and actions of every single one of the dozens of characters in homestuck, and there's a real good possibility that any single one of those characters could have drastically changed how things happened. like, what would have happened if john had stood up for jake and his situation sooner? would things have been better if roxy had said something to jane? what if jade were to come to the conclusion that her attitude towards relationships was unhealthy and shallow?

a self sacrifice is how dirk would like to paint the whole thing. he would absolutely claim that he's taking responsibility, becoming a monster to ensure that his friends never fall into that horrible cotton candy bullshit that is Clearly The Only Possible Alternative [/sarcasm], and that really, they should be thanking him for what he's done. but that's not the truth.
the truth is that he's doing it because he still wants to be important to his audience, and he just doesn't want to live out a boring mundane happily ever after surrounded by his friends for the rest of his immortal life. he's shown us in the most literal terms possible that he would literally rather die. he doesn't give a damn what happens to anyone else after that, or he would have stuck around to find out. his reasons are selfish, and he sacrifices nothing because he thinks he's already lost everything.

but it makes sense from his perspective. I mean, to grow up hunted and alone, trapped in a story where your only purpose is to serve the will of the narrative in exchange for relevance, only to have half the plot cut off in favor of just.... living? moving on with your life? to be suddenly denied the one thing you thought your entire existence was for, and to then realize that your only means of taking it back is to become the angry god of this new world and make all your friends' lives a living hell? of course he went through with it.
it really is a pretty damn tragic story

This is the best post in the thread, really sums up best parts of Dirk's character arc. Thanks for posting.

[Joyfulldreams]

Hi I love Dirk Strider he's a good boy who was lonely and loved his friends so much he'd literally die for them a hundred times over and he got stuck between at least five different rocks and six different hard places and he's a literal child who reasonably didn't know how to deal with that and made a bunch of mistakes.

And then the epilogues happened, I guess.

@thepungeonmaster:
"But it's more interesting to ask why that happened than to simply state that Dirk's arc got thrown out the window."

I am going to sound very bitter right now but that bitterness is directed at the epilogues and not at you BUT.

WOW THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE MORE INTERESTING THING TO EXPLORE WOULDN'T IT HAVE? HUH? THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE MUCH BETTER THING THAN THE THING THEY ACTUALLY DID, WOULDN'T IT HAVE? GIVING DIRK AN ACTUAL CHARACTER ARC? INSTEAD OF...NOT? DOING THAT??? AND JUST MAKING HIM DO A COMPLETE 180 WITHOUT BOTHERING TO EXPLAIN WHY OR HOW? It's almost like the epilogues are written badly. Because there was an option that would have been good, and then they deliberately did the worse thing, and it was bad. And being able to retroactively try and make it more interesting in your own brain by asking the obvious question the epilogues failed to ask does not somehow mean that it was actually in the epilogues all along, because it wasn't, and isn't. The epilogues completely ruin Dirk's character arc for stupid dumb reasons, and it is bad. You can try and twist your brain into a pretzel to engage with them on a less crap level if you want to bother to try but that doesn't change the original, crap writing that is there, immortalized in text form.

Also, anything that HS2 does is going to be pretty much in SPITE of the epilogues, rather than 'this was the plan all along', because it shares almost none of the same writers. The writers that are retained wrote the least of the epilogues and had almost nothing to do with the overall story choices that were made. It is a horrendous mess that some good-natured folk are doing their best to try and clean up, but it's STILL A MESS.

[PilotBlackSmith]

WOW THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE MORE INTERESTING THING TO EXPLORE WOULDN'T IT HAVE? HUH? THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE MUCH BETTER THING THAN THE THING THEY ACTUALLY DID, WOULDN'T IT HAVE? GIVING DIRK AN ACTUAL CHARACTER ARC? INSTEAD OF...NOT? DOING THAT??? AND JUST MAKING HIM DO A COMPLETE 180 WITHOUT BOTHERING TO EXPLAIN WHY OR HOW? It's almost like the epilogues are written badly. Because there was an option that would have been good, and then they deliberately did the worse thing, and it was bad. And being able to retroactively try and make it more interesting in your own brain by asking the obvious question the epilogues failed to ask does not somehow mean that it was actually in the epilogues all along, because it wasn't, and isn't. The epilogues completely ruin Dirk's character arc for stupid dumb reasons, and it is bad. You can try and twist your brain into a pretzel to engage with them on a less crap level if you want to bother to try but that doesn't change the original, crap writing that is there, immortalized in text form.

no you dont get it it's SUPPOSED to be bad haha like its SO subversive like you tought it would be a nice piece of closure on their character arcs but its actually a shitty fanfic that ruins everyone that is now official and thus canon because WP doesn't understand how intellectual properties work
thanks Hussie
I hate it

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

I'm kind of dumb so I'm not really sure what Dirk's arc was meant to be before it changed trajectory.

[Joyfulldreams]

WOW THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE MORE INTERESTING THING TO EXPLORE WOULDN'T IT HAVE? HUH? THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE MUCH BETTER THING THAN THE THING THEY ACTUALLY DID, WOULDN'T IT HAVE? GIVING DIRK AN ACTUAL CHARACTER ARC? INSTEAD OF...NOT? DOING THAT??? AND JUST MAKING HIM DO A COMPLETE 180 WITHOUT BOTHERING TO EXPLAIN WHY OR HOW? It's almost like the epilogues are written badly. Because there was an option that would have been good, and then they deliberately did the worse thing, and it was bad. And being able to retroactively try and make it more interesting in your own brain by asking the obvious question the epilogues failed to ask does not somehow mean that it was actually in the epilogues all along, because it wasn't, and isn't. The epilogues completely ruin Dirk's character arc for stupid dumb reasons, and it is bad. You can try and twist your brain into a pretzel to engage with them on a less crap level if you want to bother to try but that doesn't change the original, crap writing that is there, immortalized in text form.

no you dont get it it's SUPPOSED to be bad haha like its SO subversive like you tought it would be a nice piece of closure on their character arcs but its actually a shitty fanfic that ruins everyone that is now official and thus canon because WP doesn't understand how intellectual properties work
thanks Hussie
I hate it

See the whole closure thing is a completely different can of worms. The epilogues didn't need to be what I wanted them to be. They are meant to be a tragedy and like I think that's kind of dumb and I hate it, that's the story they wanted to write and so that's their perogative. Whether or not a story personally gives me closure doesn't have any bearing on the actual quality of the work, just on whether I like it or not. (Which I don't! A lot!)

No, the epilogues are bad by IT'S OWN METRIC. If the epilogues are meant to be a tragedy, if they are meant to be dark fiction (which they are!), then they are a SHITTILY DONE TRAGEDY. Tragedies are no different from any other story in that the catharsis at the end comes from watching the *progression* from the initial starting point to the horrible ending. If they wanted Dirk's story to go from where it was and into a tragic fall from grace despite all the fighting he did to avoid that fate, desu??? If they had actually written that fucking story, I would have been interested in it. It would have made me sad and I probably would still not have liked it, but I would have found it interesting!

But no. They just fucking SKIP!!!!! THE ESSENTIAL!!!! PART!!! AND GO STRAIGHT TO THE END!!!!! AND IT'S BAD!! THAT'S BAD WRITING, HOMIE!!!! YOU WROTE A BAD!!!!!!! YOUR DARK FICTION IS BADLY WRITTEN! The epilogues aren't bad because they're depressing, they're bad because they are WRITTEN BADLY.

THIS IS LIKE IF HAMLET WAS LIKE "YO HAMLET YOUR DAD GOT MURDERED" AND THEN WE WALK DOWN THE HALL TO THE END AND SOMEBODY MENTIONS OFF SCREEN HOW SAD IT WAS OPHELIA DIED AND HAMLET GOES "I CARE NOT FOR THAT WENCH" AND THEN EVERYBODY DIES, AND THEN THE REST IS JUST HAMELT'S GHOST WANKING ABOUT HOW COOL IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IF WE'D SEEN ALL THE STUFF THAT LEAD UP TO THAT. HOW WE'D TOTALLY GET IT IF WE JUST SAW THAT PART. YOU KNOW, THE PART THEY ON PURPOSE DIDN'T SHOW US.

[nonsenseMnemonic]

I'm kind of dumb so I'm not really sure what Dirk's arc was meant to be before it changed trajectory.

I'm assuming you mean his arc within the comic, before the Epilogues shifted it, right?
I think Dirk's arc in Homestuck is best understood in two parts: as another changed trajectory, this time from Bro's path, and as a progression from insincerity (irony) to sincerity and openness.
His conversation with Dave highlights this first part a bit.

DIRK: Right.
DIRK: The thing with that, with my adult self's...
DIRK: Ways.
DIRK: The sad thing is,
DIRK: I can really see it.
DIRK: How someone like me can go unchecked in life, and turn out to become a much worse person than I already am.
DIRK: I guess I'm just relieved I still have some time to make sure that doesn't happen.

Our Dirk has already taken some steps towards manipulating people into doing what he thinks is best. Y'know, the whole puppet theme. And he's taken steps to realize how to have healthier relationships, with himself and with others.
Dirk's growth is very focused on him as an individual -- it's not about becoming a hero or contributing to a greater good. He doesn't need to become brave or important; he already is. He uses importance, and the ability to plan and get things done, in order to avoid forming close or open relationships. He keeps people at a distance. He wants intimacy, but he's not able to be intimate: He pulls Jake around, changing external circumstances to get them to date, because he's not capable of having an actual heart-to-heart. When he manages to be sincere about his own feelings with himself, he's still not able to confront others about them, as we see when he voices his admiration for Roxy (after Trickster Mode).
I dunno if you've heard the phrase, but much of this is about irony poisoning, where people immerse themselves in insincerity and disdain for sincerity, and in doing so make it difficult for themselves to be sincere. It's a strategy for avoiding vulnerability, and it doesn't work.
Dirk's arc in Homestuck is about learning to be vulnerable, both individually in order to allow him to have feelings, and interpersonally to allow him to share his feelings with others. He is by no means done working on himself at the end of the comic.

In the Epilogues, Dirk has apparently given up on personal growth, and dedicated himself to being important, the same coping mechanism he used to avoid thinking about his feelings in the first place. It's a jarring step backwards from what we see in Homestuck, especially without being able to see any sort of transition from point A to point B.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

He did have time to change, but he's also a dude that has never asked for help before, and probably wouldn't even consider it. Has this whole complex of raising his own damn self ever since he was an infant. Like, on his own, he'll be like "I have a big, smart, philosophy brain. Maybe if I think really hard, I'll figure out how to be less of a shithead," even though that's what he tried last time.

The closest thing he's got to asking for help is acting out and waiting to get called out on it, which is why he's calling himself the villain. He knows what he's doing is wrong but he can't be stopped.

I think it'd be worse writing if Dirk were any better in the future without any explanation. Kinda like how I'm disappointed by Dave and Karkat became chummy post-retcon through a montage. I'm guessing that's why the Epilogues seemed to make their relationship go backwards from where we once thought it was.

[SbIUsedToKnow]

What dirkscourse.

He is the best boy there is.

[BrobyDDark]

What dirkscourse.

He is the best boy there is.

dirk sux

we discourse now

[calamityCons]

Please provide evidence and reasoning for your dirk sux or dirk is best boy headcanons and we will argue over whether or not it is correct. This is how discourse is achieved.

[egg]

Imagine stanning someone whose name sounds like "Dick". Could not be me.