I hate the whole "canon discussion" the series has taken

[Dream Muttman]

Jane was raised to believe she would one day replace a bisexual alien dominatrix as CEO, and she was not groomed for the position because that'd be a disgusting breach of Alternian protocol. Jane has no "white picket fence" future laid out for her, just a company to run and a fortune along with it.

She's into Jake because he's weird, exotic, good-looking and connected to her by a strange alien. She doesn't know he's a wimp at the time, or really even after since her first in person interaction with him involves him kissing their decapitated mutual friend in front of an exploding volcano. Jake then goes on adventures with Dirk and looks cool doing so. He's never shown as a wimp to anyone but Dirk.

Edit: Sorry for sending that so coldly, was struggling with my internet and lost a paragraph. To be honest I don't think Homestuck characters should ever be looked at from a perspective of "complexity as something that can be measured" because in that sense they all lose. They are simple to play off each other and to frame a complex narrative. The alpha kids are no exception and tacking on extra headcanons is fine but not the ideal for comparing them.

[Joyfulldreams]

Jane was raised to believe she would one day replace a bisexual alien dominatrix as CEO, and she was not groomed for the position because that'd be a disgusting breach of Alternian protocol.

This is kind of wrong because it was kind of a plot point that Jane had no idea the batterwitch was even a thing? Like, much of the beginning of act 6 is about how she refuses to believe this is the case, because it directly contradicts her expectations. And she...WAS groomed for the position, which is partially why she was brainwashed by the Condesce. Evidence for this is how she starts talking to Jake when she is brainwashed--the whole 'being an immortal queen with a million babies' thing? It's sort of implied the Condesce planned on at least using Jane as some sort of figurehead to hold down the fort while she goes and does a bunch of conquering, not too unlike how she used the Heiresses on Alternia before she murdered them. No idea how long she planned to keep that up for, though. Might have killed both Jane and Jake at some point later if she felt like it. Seems fairly on-brand for the Condesce to do that.

Jane has no "white picket fence" future laid out for her, just a company to run and a fortune along with it.

Do note that at age 16 she does literally live in a little suburban house with a white picket fence, and Jane's repression is caused just as much by society at large than it is by the condesce in particular, so I don't think it's too unreasonable to think that the sort of *aesthetic* of 50's suburbia has buried itself into her mind like a particularly grotesque parasite. Also, there is an alternate version of herself who does actually just marry a guy and have a kid and live in quaint suburbia with a joke shop until she dies--and that version DOES know about all the alien stuff. That kind of reveals a facet of her...innermost potential that reveals this to be a path in life she is potentially likely to go down for various reasons or other.

The rest of your rebuttal isn't wrong which is also part of why I love Jane. It's not completely unreasonable for her to not know her friends on that complex a level because knowing someone that deeply IS hard! Also, she's a 16-year-old girl, in what planet would a 16-year-old's first dude crush be anything other than surface-level infatuation??? But her problems with repression, and the ways in which her ignorance are self-imposed, are also true, and complicate things for her AND her friends significantly. (This is why I love the alphas and their complexities. Their problems are both ridiculous but also completely understandable?)

Edit: You're good, dude! IDK if I'm even trying to compare them. desu I just love talking about the alphas.......

....I love them.....

But they do kind of. Literally have a lot more going on than a lot of the other characters in the story. Some of what I've been saying can be perceived as 'tacking on headcanons' but there is still a lot there that really is not. It's just stuff that you have to sometimes look a little closer to both see and understand. Which isn't me trying to be condescending. Homestuck is fucking dense enough already, and despite how obsessed I am with it I *know* there's a ton of shit that flies over MY head because it's just not the part of the text I particularly felt compelled to focus more on.

[thorondraco]

Jane was raised to believe she would one day replace a bisexual alien dominatrix as CEO, and she was not groomed for the position because that'd be a disgusting breach of Alternian protocol.

This is kind of wrong because it was kind of a plot point that Jane had no idea the batterwitch was even a thing? Like, much of the beginning of act 6 is about how she refuses to believe this is the case, because it directly contradicts her expectations. And she...WAS groomed for the position, which is partially why she was brainwashed by the Condesce. Evidence for this is how she starts talking to Jake when she is brainwashed--the whole 'being an immortal queen with a million babies' thing? It's sort of implied the Condesce planned on at least using Jane as some sort of figurehead to hold down the fort while she goes and does a bunch of conquering, not too unlike how she used the Heiresses on Alternia before she murdered them. No idea how long she planned to keep that up for, though. Might have killed both Jane and Jake at some point later if she felt like it. Seems fairly on-brand for the Condesce to do that.

Jane has no "white picket fence" future laid out for her, just a company to run and a fortune along with it.

Do note that at age 16 she does literally live in a little suburban house with a white picket fence, and Jane's repression is caused just as much by society at large than it is by the condesce in particular, so I don't think it's too unreasonable to think that the sort of *aesthetic* of 50's suburbia has buried itself into her mind like a particularly grotesque parasite. Also, there is an alternate version of herself who does actually just marry a guy and have a kid and live in quaint suburbia with a joke shop until she dies--and that version DOES know about all the alien stuff. That kind of reveals a facet of her...innermost potential that reveals this to be a path in life she is potentially likely to go down for various reasons or other.

The rest of your rebuttal isn't wrong which is also part of why I love Jane. It's not completely unreasonable for her to not know her friends on that complex a level because knowing someone that deeply IS hard! Also, she's a 16-year-old girl, in what planet would a 16-year-old's first dude crush be anything other than surface-level infatuation??? But her problems with repression, and the ways in which her ignorance are self-imposed, are also true, and complicate things for her significantly. (This is why I love the alphas and their complexities. Their problems are both ridiculous but also completely understandable?)

AT this point we have three Janes about. Nanna, President Jane, and corporate evil Jane. Nanna, though perhaps with an implied bit of cruelty in her, kept in check with humor and pranks, is Jane at her very best given her circumstances. Corporate Jane is jane at her total possible worse, completely consumed by delusion and hatred, groomed into it by Gamzee's bard influence. She is practically another incarnation of the Condesce.
The one in the middle is President jane, the alpha Jane. Foolish yet with good intentions, not an actual threat but definitely not a mostly benign cookie slinging grandmother/mom. Still in the middle and could end up either way, with both the jokester angel and the corporate devils at her shoulders.

The interesting thing is that if Jane was forced to awaken her ultimate self, she would have to face both facets. Would like to think the jokester angel wins out, but Jane would probably be traumatized by the depths of depravity and cruelty she is actually able to sink to.

Think what is far worse than remembering the ill fates of other incarnations of oneself, would be the memories that reveal your capacity for cruelty and evil. Its probably what drove Dirk towards his current fate. Compared to Rose who awoke and was not significantly changed, short of her feeling very distant to those around her. She ultimately cried over being separated from her wife.... How many roses fell in love with Kanaya?

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

who is the pope of homestuck canon?

[Deageon]

Also, @Deageon I don't think being an archival or a live reader is a good thing to ask. It's coming across as a bad faith attempt to discredit Joyful because you're leading with the expectation of "oh I am an archival reader", which is setting her up for some kind of gotcha from you. Don't be a dick.

Im an asshole, but im not a haha xd archival reader gottem kinda asshole, gosh! :'(

[Joyfulldreams]

I mean I guess to answer the question re: archival reader or not, irrespective of any gotchas, I'm actually kind of like...a perfect even mix of the two, almost???

I got caught up with homestuck in 2015, like, a week or two before the omegapause happened. this was the last page when I finally got caught up. The comic then updated 7 times over the course of that month (July), which was about 90 pages. It went on pause (the omegapause) for approximately 8 months, at which point it was clear the fandom was aware the comic was just winding down to it's conclusion and there was just a lot of controversy over the retcon along all that time as well as nerves/excitement for the end of the comic. At least from what I recall. When it came back in late March of 2016, all of the art was clearly not drawn by hussie but by various guests--it updated 6 times with fairly large updates daily for about a week, Collide dropped four days later, there were short daily updates between then and 4/13 when Act 7 dropped and everything exploded.

I started officially working on Act Omega the month after that, May 2016, before the credits even dropped. As a result the credits aren't actually canon to Act Omega's story which is kind of a shame because I really liked the credits actually. Made me feel a lot better about stuff. But like it was such a perfect storm because all of that crap happened like the month before I graduated college??? I was furiously going at scriptwriting and brain storming for this dumb fanfic when I should have been working on my fucking thesis. God.

So like. The very first actual serial upd8 I got was...Davepeta. And I was mostly just real damn confused about why people were so MAD about it, lol. I got like the briefest whiff of upd8 culture and read the vast majority of the comic archivally except for the final 250 pages of the comic. My true fandom experience was forged in the fire of the omegapause and Act 7. I honestly find it kind of hilarious.

[gutza1]

I mean I guess to answer the question re: archival reader or not, irrespective of any gotchas, I'm actually kind of like...a perfect even mix of the two, almost???

I got caught up with homestuck in 2015, like, a week or two before the omegapause happened. this was the last page when I finally got caught up. The comic then updated 7 times over the course of that month (July), which was about 90 pages. It went on pause (the omegapause) for approximately 8 months, at which point it was clear the fandom was aware the comic was just winding down to it's conclusion and there was just a lot of controversy over the retcon along all that time as well as nerves/excitement for the end of the comic. At least from what I recall. When it came back in late March of 2016, all of the art was clearly not drawn by hussie but by various guests--it updated 6 times with fairly large updates daily for about a week, Collide dropped four days later, there were short daily updates between then and 4/13 when Act 7 dropped and everything exploded.

I started officially working on Act Omega the month after that, May 2016, before the credits even dropped. As a result the credits aren't actually canon to Act Omega's story which is kind of a shame because I really liked the credits actually. Made me feel a lot better about stuff. But like it was such a perfect storm because all of that crap happened like the month before I graduated college??? I was furiously going at scriptwriting and brain storming for this dumb fanfic when I should have been working on my fucking thesis. God.

So like. The very first actual serial upd8 I got was...Davepeta. And I was mostly just real damn confused about why people were so MAD about it, lol. I got like the briefest whiff of upd8 culture and read the vast majority of the comic archivally except for the final 250 pages of the comic. My true fandom experience was forged in the fire of the omegapause and Act 7. I honestly find it kind of hilarious.

This is very similar to my experience, although I got caught up right before Vriskagram and I got a bit salty over Davekat because I was a fanatic Daverezi shipper.

[classpectanon]

who is the pope of homestuck canon?

me

[RoyalFiddle]

who is the pope of homestuck canon?

me

Uh, no, it's me, I control it all from behind the scenes, I have my control so far up the writing teams ass they are like puppets to me. I control it all, it's me, and Dirks coming to kick my ass

[Flame_Warp]

PQ VOLUME 8 SPOILERS: It appears a certain YCH is with us on this one.

[Barraskewda]

If you want a more powerful franchise that talks about what canon really means check out Fate/(start with Fate/Stay Night's visual novel). I feel like the writing is miles ahead of most visual novels currently and even more so further ahead than the homestuck ones. If you're interested in it check it out this is my highest recommendation but this is the most I can talk about it without heavily spoiling things.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

PQ VOLUME 8 SPOILERS: It appears a certain YCH is with us on this one.

I don't know how to spoil images. Sorry.

If you want a more powerful franchise that talks about what canon really means check out Fate/(start with Fate/Stay Night's visual novel).

Can I play just the first visual novel to get a feel for what you mean, or do I have to go further in?

[Barraskewda]

Can I play just the first visual novel to get a feel for what you mean, or do I have to go further in?

Yeah the first 3 visual novel routes (Fate/ Unlimited Blade Works and Heavens feel) give you that primary theme. Since theyre sequels but also not true sequels, other Fate/ side products expand upon that in universe. It's pretty good and isn't preachy about it like homestuck gets at its worst

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

What if the point flies right by me because it's not preachy enough?

[galileanTactician]

PQ VOLUME 8 SPOILERS: It appears a certain YCH is with us on this one.

I don't know how to spoil images. Sorry.

If you want a more powerful franchise that talks about what canon really means check out Fate/(start with Fate/Stay Night's visual novel).

Can I play just the first visual novel to get a feel for what you mean, or do I have to go further in?

the fact that the word "They" is being used either suggests anonymity or a group of people being at fault for all these non canon/canon chicanery. Could this be referring to the Fans or the Writers? Or is it referring to the characters in the story itself who manipulate the Canon as puppets for those who write the story?

[thorondraco]

PQ VOLUME 8 SPOILERS: It appears a certain YCH is with us on this one.

I don't know how to spoil images. Sorry.

If you want a more powerful franchise that talks about what canon really means check out Fate/(start with Fate/Stay Night's visual novel).

Can I play just the first visual novel to get a feel for what you mean, or do I have to go further in?

the fact that the word "They" is being used either suggests anonymity or a group of people being at fault for all these non canon/canon chicanery. Could this be referring to the Fans or the Writers? Or is it referring to the characters in the story itself who manipulate the Canon as puppets for those who write the story?

An interesting note is that the reader couldn't use his powers to return to the Hiveswap storyline, which the friendsims are part of mind you. Its not like it doesn't exist anymore. We know it exists still and he is still connected to it via what appears to be a Brainghost Boldir. But he is cut off right now.

I think they are going to be some in universe force rather than something outside of it by too much. Homestuck is very meta but it need to keep a level of distance between real reality and the in universe stuff. Like Hussie was the author but he was a person from that reality to begin with.

I think the 'powers that be' being in conflict could refer to either Dirk and Calliope, or possible the 'wizards' from Rose's prophecies. Twelve wizards, twelve aspects. The classes get a bit messier of course cause there are actually 14 of them. Far as we know there are more aspects we do not yet know of.

I have no idea who the wizards could be. Cherubs? Denizens? Some kinda angel thingy we don't know of yet? I think the Denizens being like, parts of the Wizards could work, like how a player is a part of their ultimate self? Have these concepts and themes coalescing.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

The steamed hamsteaks Aradia speaks of have been referenced in Homestuck proper.

CG: BUT SUFFICE TO SAY THERE ARE JUST SOME THINGS YOU DON'T WANT TO SCREW WITH.
CG: THERE ARE OUTCOMES THAT ARE EVEN WORSE THAN THE COMPLETE ANNIHILATION OF EXISTENCE ITSELF
CG: FORCES MORE DAMAGING TO THE INTEGRITY OF REALITY THAN THOSE CAPABLE OF TURNING IMAGINATION INTO PURE VOID
CG: THEY ARE FORCES WHICH IF HANDLED RECKLESSLY WILL NULLIFY THE BASIC ABILITY OF INTELLIGENT BEINGS IN ALL REAL AND HYPOTHETICAL PLANES OF EXISTENCE TO GIVE A SHIT.

[thorondraco]

The steamed hamsteaks Aradia speaks of have been referenced in Homestuck proper.

CG: BUT SUFFICE TO SAY THERE ARE JUST SOME THINGS YOU DON'T WANT TO SCREW WITH.
CG: THERE ARE OUTCOMES THAT ARE EVEN WORSE THAN THE COMPLETE ANNIHILATION OF EXISTENCE ITSELF
CG: FORCES MORE DAMAGING TO THE INTEGRITY OF REALITY THAN THOSE CAPABLE OF TURNING IMAGINATION INTO PURE VOID
CG: THEY ARE FORCES WHICH IF HANDLED RECKLESSLY WILL NULLIFY THE BASIC ABILITY OF INTELLIGENT BEINGS IN ALL REAL AND HYPOTHETICAL PLANES OF EXISTENCE TO GIVE A SHIT.

the wah?

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

"they are going to be so steamed" -> "steamed hams" + "hamsteak (corruption of homestuck)" = "steamed hamsteaks"