On the future of Homestuck

[tajazzled]

oh shit 420

[calamityCons]

You know, it is genuinely pretty shit that homestuck not being popular and having a shrinking interest is a GOOD scenario. It’s shocking to me.

Also, while ViZ claiming they “have the rights to a certain character behaving a certain way” is a little worrying, because ViZ is not the owner of the IP and thus shouldnt have any say in that... I kinda thought that consistent characterization and behaviors and overall demeanor of a character/collection of character traits was like. The default for any IP?

If Sonic the Hedgehog didnt act like himself, it is viable to assume it is a parody work and thus protected under fair use. Likewise the characters behaving consistently is kind of the point.

[Joyfulldreams]

You know, it is genuinely pretty shit that homestuck not being popular and having a shrinking interest is a GOOD scenario. It’s shocking to me.

Also, while ViZ claiming they “have the rights to a certain character behaving a certain way” is a little worrying, because ViZ is not the owner of the IP and thus shouldnt have any say in that... I kinda thought that consistent characterization and behaviors and overall demeanor of a character/collection of character traits was like. The default for any IP?

If Sonic the Hedgehog didnt act like himself, it is viable to assume it is a parody work and thus protected under fair use. Likewise the characters behaving consistently is kind of the point.

Yyyyyuuuup it's pretty shit. Like. People more competent than me are working on it, though, even if their overall competence leaves something to be desired. desu I should talk to the folks I know at WP about the possibility of getting into contact with the OTW. Homestuck's integrity as an IP isn't exactly the thing that their lawyer team deals with, since their focus is fan work, not original IP's. But considering Homestuck is so inherently intertwined with it's fanbase it might be worth it to at least see if consulting them on legal matters would be an option. But something tells me the biggest nail on the coffin there, insofar as getting more than just advice, would ironically also be the fact that WP encourages fans to monetize their fan content. The OTW doesn't really operate with that in mind and has pretty strict policies of keeping any form of monetization off of the AO3. But I have no idea if that's because of some actual ideological stance they hold with regards to the integrity of fandom, or if it's just a necessary measure to ensure that the OTW stays within legal bounds. I just have this bad feeling their lawyers wouldn't be able to do anything but shrug and say we've fucked ourselves and they can't help.

I'm also particularly nervous because I feel like I, perhaps more than most people, am in one of the most vulnerable legal situations regarding all this. Act Omega is one of the most popular fan adventures in the fandom at the moment, and it more than Vast Error is just like. Directly infringing on the Homestuck IP in the most egregious way. And I just started a Patreon, so like. I'm making some tiny amount of money on it but. It's money. Eek. I'm visible, and I'm the easiest to make a case against. If anybody is going to be made an example of. It'd...probably be me!

[calamityCons]

All I can really say is that it would not hurt at all to get free legal consultation from somewhere because they will better answer your questions.

[ThePungeonMaster]

Well, that's... bad. Really no other way to put it. It just sucks. But it does beg a few questions. Chief among them being what exactly does this contract hammered out between Viz and What Pumpkin entail? What powers do Viz hold over the story, and for how long. Firstly it's worth asking how much control Viz will have over the story for the foreseeable future. Whatever deal they have worked out with Hussie is bound to have some contingency, a time limit or a limit of how much power Viz has. It's already evident that they have too much power based off the fact they argued "that they had ownership of 'a Homestuck character acting in a specific way'".

Legally, if an Intellectual property is to remain yours, you HAVE to enforce it by sueing or at least sending Cease and Desist orders to anyone it can be reasonably proved you KNOW is infringing on your copyright. Namely: literally any fan that is taking advantage of WP's good will to profit off of Homestuck fanworks. Including myself, now. Viz doesn't own the intellectual property per say, they own the publishing rights AND have control over all merch sales (which is why we'll be stuck with By Fans For Fans for the forseeable future).

The idea that Viz doesn't own the property seems to be at odds with the fact that they're trying to seize some kind of creative power over the story, and as such I wonder just how much stake Viz does have in the future of Homestuck, and weather or not they may be able to seize control of Homestuck entirely through some legal loophole.

Additionally, it makes me wonder why the authors would even promise giving Homestuck back to the fans, because it seems such is legally impermissible, as Homestuck fanworks can't legally make their own revenue, and any kind of fan involvement in an official may put the fans themselves at risk. Also makes me wonder what exactly the defining line is between fanfiction and contract work, if contract work can be done for free under semi-official circumstance, if not then why is Paradox Space legally permissible, etc. Granted, I'm no lawyer, and I take it nobody else here is either.

Homestuck has always had a weird relationship with copyright anyway, all the film footage, posters, and likenesses of famous people depicted in Homestuck make it a minefield legally, Viz complications not withstanding. I'm reminded of when in Hot Fuzz, the most difficult scene to film was just one where the two main protagonists watch a couple of action movies, because of all the legal red tape the creators of the film had to navigate just to get all studios and actors to sign off on their inclusion in the movie. Homestuck is that multiplied by every mention of Betty Crocker, Nicholas Cage, or the Ghostbusters.

[classpectanon]

Not that I don't believe you but some of the stuff being claimed here, I feel, really needs a citation, otherwise, we're all working ourselves into a tizzy over hearsay.

[calamityCons]

CPA is right. Also, Joyfull, I recommend you cease using language implying you’re a member of WP. Using rhe plural singular pronoun the way you have has made it seem like you’re more of an insider and active participant in the things going down behind the scenes which you’ve stated isnt the case.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

But I have no idea if that's because of some actual ideological stance they hold with regards to the integrity of fandom, or if it's just a necessary measure to ensure that the OTW stays within legal bounds.

it's the latter. i don't see the relevance because act omega isn't hosted on ao3.

[Joyfulldreams]

But I have no idea if that's because of some actual ideological stance they hold with regards to the integrity of fandom, or if it's just a necessary measure to ensure that the OTW stays within legal bounds.

it's the latter. i don't see the relevance because act omega isn't hosted on ao3.

It doesn't really have anything to do with AO3? I mean in terms of Viz potentially going after fans, I'm one of the most vulnerable.

Also sorry for making it sound like I'm more "in" stuff than I am. ^^; (When I used 'we' I meant like, the homestuck fandom as a whole.)

Also. Turns out I was actually wrong about the copyright. You don't have to actively defend copyright, that's TRADEMARKS. So perhaps some aspects of my doomsday catastrophizing were inaccurate. OTL

But yeah, considering I can't give citations for things I've heard, it is basically all hearsay and I'm not trying to say that anything I've laid out is definitely or likely to happen. I just wanted to convey the fact that there are lots of potentially complicating factors that have given many people reasonable cause to be wary when it comes to changing the state of the fandom in any drastic way.

[classpectanon]

i have also personally asked aysha regarding sending takedowns, and she has said, and i quote, "we aren't going to issue any takedowns, we haven't made any official statements but we don't give a shit", so thats their stance on that

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

Maybe that's the whole point of having Viz buy Homestuck. They don't have to sue anyone to protect their copyright because Viz already has the lawyers.

[classpectanon]

"we're not going to sue anyone" "yeah but what if they do anyway"

[ThePungeonMaster]

Regardless of conjecture from sources of tentative authority on who does or does not have any kind of legal say over the direction of Homestuck, HS^2 drastically needs more fan involvement.
Sure, it was great to be able to name Vrissy, but the command box was open for all of about 10 minutes, and it was only announced on twitter, and the name was picked arbitrarily.
That's hardly fan involvement.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: There desperately needs to be an official Homestuck website, a platform that is mutually agreeable that Homestucks and the writers can converse on (that isn't twitter, because attempting to find a nuanced opinion or discussion on twitter is like trying to find a needle in a haystack but the haystack is on fire). Otherwise it will just be authors closing themselves into their private echochamber, and I don't think anyone wants that, least of all the writers. Social media is dangerous man, it pulls you into a pit, but with such delicacy and nuance you don't even know you're being sucked in.
I've already spoken my piece on what I think should be done, and I think many people agree. There should be some kind of branching narrative to the story, like between Candy and Meat, but in this case between fan works and works done by the official writers. Sure the writing team is comprised of professional writers, but I've still seen complaints about the quality of the prose, and I will say that it can be rather dense and wordy at times. Heck, I've seen fanworks with writing better than what we're getting in HS^2.
So that's exactly what I'd like to see done: Give fans who prove themselves to be valued members of the community some time to shine. Like Paradox Space, but with it's own continuity(s) separate from what is done by Aysha and the rest of the crew. So many people already do fanfiction for free that I'm sure they'd be overjoyed to make a contribution to the story even without pay. That, and it would placate the readers who currently feel unsatisfied with the stories direction. With a little bit of tinkering to the idea, and some supervision of these supposed fan authors, this concept could very well solve the whole conundrum of fan involvement in Homestuck, and the authors wouldn't have such a weight on their backs to continually and rapdly pump out updates just as good if not better than those of HS^1. It's a win-win.
There's this great fucking take Burnt2Ashleys made about the whole sitch.

My two cents on this:
I understand the intention: They want to make Homestuck accessible and give the community some manner of authorial voice. That's noble! Homestuck started as something where the fandom was hands-on, on a forum where people were very hands on! That's good! But the execution... that kills it. It's in a separate site, dedicated solely to host the comic, as opposed to being in, I don't know, MSPFA? They could do that, come in contact with the community of people that actually make comics, get some feedback from the community.
This is what I would say if I were a naive little bitch, which I ain't. It only takes this thread to see that the majority of the fandom is quite hostile to whatever move that the creators make. Hiveswap? Too late! Go faster! Homestuck getting a conclusion? I don't like it! Delete it! Homestuck^2? It sucks! Stop! Make something better!
This is not to say, of course, that there isn't valid and useful criticism about any of the points I used! The Epilogues weren't bad (from what I read of them, and I shan't dare speak of that which I do not fully understand), Hiveswap is in the works, and Homestuck^2 could use some constructive criticism (tweak up the rooms and the sprites, change the art style to fit a different narrative)! However, we, as the community, must, invariably, learn how to portray ourselves in a non-hostile manner, that befits a collection of people who like something and who want a hand on it. Instead of tearing down that which we don't like, we have to build up that which we do like.
So, to conclude: Homestuck^2 definitely needs some polish, but I also believe that it deserves help. Help from us, the community. Help that can only come the moment we decide to not slander and harass the creators and actually try to help and create. Homestuck^2 shows a lot of promise! It has multiple, very good writers, Xamag (an artist whose skill I can't fully describe with my limited vocabulary) doing the art, and Andrew himself, of course, writing the outline. The future is made, not written, so let's make it good.

[TC]

It's a good poll for the most part but the last question is a bit too broad. Rating Homestuck from 2009-2016 doesn't really work because of how polarizing 2011-2016 Homestuck is.

[ThePungeonMaster]

Hey, remember this shit? Yeah, I'm going to be doing another poll of the Homestuck community on the 10th, and running it for about 10 days until the 20th. Currently I'm looking for question suggestions: Anything goes, if you have any suggestions for the survey throw them out there. Hopefully this time it will get off to less of a rocky start than the first.
Before anyone asks, I'm doing this now because it's a good calm before the storm that's going to be the end of Pesterquest and the 4/13 update, because in April, everyone's views are inevitably going to be polarized, so I think asking now would be the best way to get quality statistics.
If the stats are negative, and the update was awful, we can all say "Wow, Homestuck^2 was a crock of shit already and it managed to get even worse?" But if the stats are positive and the update was fantastic we can all say "Wow, Homestuck^2 wasn't really as bad as we thought after all, and (shit that happened following the end of March) made it even better!"

[Kidpen]

Hey, remember this shit? Yeah, I'm going to be doing another poll of the Homestuck community on the 10th, and running it for about 10 days until the 20th. Currently I'm looking for question suggestions: Anything goes, if you have any suggestions for the survey throw them out there. Hopefully this time it will get off to less of a rocky start than the first.
Before anyone asks, I'm doing this now because it's a good calm before the storm that's going to be the end of Pesterquest and the 4/13 update, because in April, everyone's views are inevitably going to be polarized, so I think asking now would be the best way to get quality statistics.
If the stats are negative, and the update was awful, we can all say "Wow, Homestuck^2 was a crock of shit already and it managed to get even worse?" But if the stats are positive and the update was fantastic we can all say "Wow, Homestuck^2 wasn't really as bad as we thought after all, and (shit that happened following the end of March) made it even better!"

Made a quick list of questions I'd be interested to see the answers for. Also just gonna throw out that you should make, at the very least, any questions that require actually writing something optional in order to maximize responses.
Also obviously you can edit any of these questions to taste. I'll probably have some more at some point.

Spoiler

Show

Favorite HS^2 chapter so far.
Favorite PQ route.
Least favorite of each.
Currently supporting Patreon? If so, opinion on bonus updates/commentary and such.
If not, why not? Do you see yourself supporting sometime in the future?
Would you say you are optimistic or pessimistic about the future of Homestuck?
Favorite HS act (or something similar, I’d like to see some stats about correlation between this and opinion on current HS stuff).
At what point did you begin reading HS?
Opinion on the epilogues?
Favorite part of HS^2 so far? (art, worldbuilding, character development, whatever you choose the options)
Do you plan to purchase all future HS games (such as Friendsim, PQ, Hiveswap, and whatever else comes out)?
If not, are you instead going to experience said games via YT playthroughs or similar?
Are you actively/frequently consuming fan content such as fanventures, fanfiction, or fanart?
How do you feel about the new designs of several characters in HS^2? (you could split it up or keep it together)
Do you feel that the expanding representation in HS, and particularly the epilogues, was handled well?

[Shitpost Lizard]

Question suggestions:

• Favorite characterization / writing in HS^2?
• Least favorite characterization / writing in HS^2?
• Favorite characterization / writing in Pesterquest?
• Least favorite characterization / writing in Pesterquest?
• Do you feel like the current quality of writing in the series is an upgrade or a downgrade from the original comic?
• Do you feel like "Toblerone wishes" are a good or bad idea?
• Would you like to see more or less fan involvement in the series' official projects?
• Do you feel like the creation and hosting of official merchandise (For Fans By Fans) is being handled well or poorly? Explain.

[eldomtom2]

Question suggestion: Do you think Homestuck should be made public domain?

[Generalrabogolfo]

Question suggestion: Do you think Homestuck should be made public domain?

yes.

[magnanimousLad]

Question suggestion: Do you think Homestuck should be made public domain?

Ideally yes, but given the Viz acquisition is that even feasible? I don't know the specifics of that deal, but they seem like they'd object to that, even disregarding the fact that I can't imagine the team behind Homestuck^2 being particularly eager to do that either.