Broken Troll Worldbuilding discussion

[JakeMorph]

i don't think anybody's telling you to "not think about it because Lord English". it's more like "consider how Lord English's influence affects this ". English comes from a species whose whole culture revolves around bloody battle between two sexes, and is dominated by a personality whose character largely consists of misogyny for misogyny's sake. both of these things factor heavily into alternian culture by design.

[calamityCons]

I am considering it. I also think this is a lot of excuses to try and keep Karkat’s own misogynistic “STOP PLAYING GAMES FOR GIRLS” line and try to make it more meaningful and in-character for Karkat The Softboi rather than Karkat The Verbal Abuser Trying To Protect Himself From Getting Culled. It’s a wonder how Karkat is able to befriend so many trolls with his caustic attitude, did they think he was hateflirting?

There is. Just so much clutter? I don’t like it. Bluuuuuuuuuuuuh.

[AquaticArbiter]

Okay so i have only one major gripe about alternia, and its something that goes extremely overlooked

"You have embraced the tool of this trade, which conveniently is the weapon of choice for those who would hunt the HEINOUS BROODS OF THE UNDEAD which crawl from the sand at sunrise to feast on the light and the living." - Kanayas introduction, https://www.homestuck.com/story/2323

THE UNDEAD
COMES TO LIFE
ON ALTERNIA
AND THIS IS NEVER TOUCHED ON AGAIN

[JakeMorph]

I am considering it. I also think this is a lot of excuses to try and keep Karkat’s own misogynistic “STOP PLAYING GAMES FOR GIRLS” line and try to make it more meaningful and in-character for Karkat The Softboi rather than Karkat The Verbal Abuser Trying To Protect Himself From Getting Culled.

i'm not rly sure what you're saying? i dont think "karkat is a misogynist because lots of men on his world are misogynists" absolves him of his actions any more than "karkat is a misogynist on a gender utopia world just because the author was also kind of a misogynist at one point". andrew has definitely tried to take some backpedals in the book commentary lol ("maybe he was just calling nepeta autistic because she IS autistic!") but i don't think that was his intention with this bit of worldbuilding.

THE UNDEAD
COMES TO LIFE
ON ALTERNIA
AND THIS IS NEVER TOUCHED ON AGAIN

this actually... is touched upon...? it's like a major part of kanaya's story...? and continues to be part of her character to the end of the comic?

[calamityCons]

Pesterquest says that the Undead mentioned in Kanaya’s introduction are zombies. Unless that doesn’t count in the discussion because it’s Pesterquest and not Homestuck. Also, Kanaya’s vampirism has so, so little to do with her character outside of her coming back to life to interrupt the 3x showdown combo that I don’t think it’s fair to say it’s “a major part of her life until the end of the comic” when she never struggles with the desire to drink blood.

Also re: Karkat’s “stop playing games for girls”: it is a really misogynistic thing to say, and if Karkat was ever shown to apologize to Tavros for dismissing his legitimate physical pain and disability by saying something like that to kick him while he was down, then it would be easier to swallow. If Karkat genuinely didn’t realize Tavros was serious, and he was trying to warn him away from something dangerous (as Hussie backpedals on in the commentary by repeating a common fan theory from 2011 that “games for girls” actually meant “extremely violent and dangerous because a woman is at the top of the hierarchy and thus femininity is a sign of extreme ruthlessness and violence”) the way he phrased it was still dismissive.

I mean, does Karkat ever really apologize for his verbally abusive behavior? Did he suddenly stop after Alternia blew up because he realized the social order didnt matter to him anymore and he could tear down some of his walls? Karkat’s definitely a sensitive and frightened child who wants to keep people away from him because he believes himself to be a despicable creature and not worth love, but then how in the hell did he make any friends AT ALL? I could imagine that Tavros would be afraid of or try to avoid Karkat for being such an ass about his disability, but the poor guy has been repeatedly attacked for being himself or trying to assert boundaries so i can imagine he’d just be terrified and go along out of fear rather than friendship.

[NAKNAKNAK]

When she never struggles with the desire to drink blood.

Pretty much, outside of glowing from time to time and like one joke screen where a mindjacked Jane is selling her special 'potions' of troll blood Gamzee bottled Kanaya being a rainbow drinker is kinda... Eh?

[JakeMorph]

i didn't say it was a major part of her life lol i'm just saying the line served the purpose it was meant to serve, which was foreshadowing kanaya coming back to life after dying.

[Dream Muttman]

That was not the line that did that. The rainbow drinker foreshadowing comes when she mentions the trashy romance novels she reads, a Twilight joke. That trolls don't bury their dead and the dead come back as zombies that have to be kept at bay with chainsaws is absolutely something that's never made relevant in the setting.

[JakeMorph]

i think "the rising dead are actually a real thing that happens on this planet" MIGHT be a bit more of a hint for the reader than "this character reads books about fictional vampires"? it's not against the rules for something to be foreshadowed more than once or in multiple ways either lol

[thorondraco]

i think "the rising dead are actually a real thing that happens on this planet" MIGHT be a bit more of a hint for the reader than "this character reads books about fictional vampires"? it's not against the rules for something to be foreshadowed more than once or in multiple ways either lol

The zombies are more than likely because of the Horror Terror's presence. Necromancy is part of whatever powers they have. Beforus however did have rainbow drinkers too so it doesn't seem like thw two are actually connected.

Personally think a rainbow drinker is some kind of transformation a Jade can go through if they are met a mortal blow. They basically get a power boost to protect the brood and grubs against whatever was initially strong enough to kill them.

That would explain why on Alternia they are feared by highbloods, Rainbow drinkers might be as strong as them or stronger.

[Dream Muttman]

That the undead exist serves more to prepare the reader for Aradia. Alternia's undead are probably psychic ghosts that control their own bodies, but either way it doesn't really matter. That the undead exist on Alternia is never given any real weight as a worldbuilding component. Rainbow drinkers are easily the least impactful version and they barely get mentioned. The most ghosts get in Hiveswap is a mention in that weird sport's infodump, that lowbloods are added to teams to commune with dead players.

Plus this brings us to a different problem. Kanaya is supposed to be as isolated as she is because Jade Bloods are rare, but Hiveswap has a bunch of them and they are not isolated at all. There's also discrepancies with the way troll children seem to have jobs supporting a society. A society that probably wouldn't exist if Alternia was kept to its themes as a Neverland-crossed-with-Lord-of-the-Flies setting.

And my main gripe: Hiveswap has Alternia generate its own culture instead of consuming off-planet adult troll culture. I think that's a BIG change. The underage trolls play sports, write books, stream bad torture porn and generally create everything they consume. There was a big metaphor there that was completely lost.

[JakeMorph]

you're free to disagree but i really don't think the fact that kanaya's introduction basically shovels zombies and "drinkers" down the reader's throats is meant to serve any purpose other than to indicate that it is a possibility that maybe someday kanaya will come back as a zombie or a "drinker".

i also don't think it's fair to judge hiveswap on how much it's utilised the undead concept when it's only been... one game? and joey has spent only a fraction of a night on the planet so far. the undead on alternia come out during the day: i can almost promise that they will get more attention.

[thorondraco]

you're free to disagree but i really don't think the fact that kanaya's introduction basically shovels zombies and "drinkers" down the reader's throats is meant to serve any purpose other than to indicate that it is a possibility that maybe someday kanaya will come back as a zombie or a "drinker".

i also don't think it's fair to judge hiveswap on how much it's utilised the undead concept when it's only been... one game? and joey has spent only a fraction of a night on the planet so far. the undead on alternia come out during the day: i can almost promise that they will get more attention.

Joey the zombie slayer!

... What if the zombies turn out to be the same things that attacked her on earth? We are presumably talking about chtulu esque zombies cause of the horror terror presence and a major description of the zombos that attacked the Reader and Kanaya, giant enormous maws, reminds me of the thigns at the half harley manor.

that is something i feel we need to remember. Effectively speaking, the Reader was originally a Hiveswap character. He was created to help flesh out the trollcall trolls, and of course fill up time, before he was brought back to fuck up the narrative of Homestuck.

[rookie1978]

jakemorph seems exceedingly horny for defending bad writing

[JakeMorph]

what an inappropriate and immature thing to interject about someone you don't know into a conversation you weren't involved with in a thread specifically for discussing whether certain aspects of homestuck's writing are bad or not

[thorondraco]

jakemorph seems exceedingly horny for defending bad writing

I am gonna presume you were a bit tipsy or something when you wrote that cuase it was more than a bit rude.

[classpectanon]

jakemorph seems exceedingly horny for defending bad writing

Don't do this.

[pfeffer-29]

I think a lot of this could be fixed if, as an outcome of Hiveswap's events, Alternia irrevocably shifts into the nightmare trollplanet we all know and love from Hivebent. Unfortunately, unless the writers in Pesterquest have planned to reveal that something happened between Trizza's and Feferi's eras in-game, we'll have to wait until Hiveswap ends, which may well take a decade at this rate.

Or perhaps everyone's decided to quietly retcon Hivebent, but I prefer to be optimistic.

[calamityCons]

Retcons are difficult to swallow at the best of times, but if written well or revealed as a nuance of the world the story takes place in then I’m a fan. Cosmic retcons like John’s Yaldaboon power, though, are bullshit and I am not a fan.

[thorondraco]

I think a lot of this could be fixed if, as an outcome of Hiveswap's events, Alternia irrevocably shifts into the nightmare trollplanet we all know and love from Hivebent. Unfortunately, unless the writers in Pesterquest have planned to reveal that something happened between Trizza's and Feferi's eras in-game, we'll have to wait until Hiveswap ends, which may well take a decade at this rate.

Or perhaps everyone's decided to quietly retcon Hivebent, but I prefer to be optimistic.

I have a feeling it won't take that long at this point. They have a publisher who supposedly won't fuck them over right now with Fellow Traveler. The reason its taking act 2 so long i think has to do with Viz fucking them over with a 'restructuring' that made them lose what they had.
I think what has added to the delay, despite them getting the old and new peeps back into whatpumpkin, is that they decided to remake Act 2 so that the writing and characterization more matches what we saw in Friendsims so there isn't inconsistency. I think someone mentioned they did that but i don't remember who that info came from.

If things continue to go well i think they will be able to get the game done in a relatively timely manner. Its likely we would have gotten Act 2 in 2018, albeit perhaps later, were it not for the restructure from Viz. Then again we wouldn't have gotten friendsims. And thus we wouldn't have gotten Pesterquest cause they really wanted to bring the Reader back and make him definitely not the same reader we see in the comic itself.