Broken Troll Worldbuilding discussion

[JakeMorph]

meenah did not... develop those powers because she made sburb? nor was she even the first person to make sburb? nor does sburb "utilise advanced Alternian technology'??? maybe the reason your interpretation of this part of the text isn't intuitive is because it doesn't make any sense

[thorondraco]

meenah did not... develop those powers because she made sburb? nor was she even the first person to make sburb? nor does sburb "utilise advanced Alternian technology'??? maybe the reason your interpretation of this part of the text isn't intuitive is because it doesn't make any sense

if i am not mistaken a civilization reverse engineers their own version of Sburb from the ruins information. Thus using their own technology to make a version. Though it seems like the sburb tech does allow a boost in the technology levels of a civilization, but it probably varies depending on the civilization. Think it can be confirmed sylladexes are a result of sburb tech at least.

Maybe that is why the sburbs are all called alpha and betas. we are not getting the 'real' sburb but a lesser version each time.

[JakeMorph]

the sburb machines pop out of a magical sburb inventory it doesnt matter who translates the game it it's the same machines every time

[thorondraco]

the sburb machines pop out of a magical sburb inventory it doesnt matter who translates the game it it's the same machines every time

Maybe, shrugs. Wouldn't be surprised if there is a version of sburb that is THE sburb out there though.

[ThePungeonMaster]

This is why I still hold that it would be better to just make Hiveswap a reboot or something, because that way we don’t have to start on the shallow surface level worldbuilding from the previous decade and can instead pick and choose the coolest or most interesting parts to extrapolate from. So much about Alternia just disintegrates without the ultimate answer of “the ingenious and brilliantly evil Doc Scratch did all of it to summon his dumb and shitty boss”

I still think that it would be better if all Homestuck properties had some kind of shared universe (not a literal "shared universe" mind you.) Trying to untie the knot that is the Homestuck continuity was always an interesting challenge. Attempting to tie together two different points of the same shared universe is much more interesting than just going "nope, it's an AU, we didn't want to have to deal with the shared continuity." Alternian society, in my mind, had plot holes and self contradictions from day one. The fact that Doc Scratch engineered Alternia to be as violent as it was isn't actually my biggest complaint: Rather that Alternia, somehow, over what can be assumed to be centuries of turbulent social movements and government crackdowns, between Homestuck and Hiveswap, hasn't evolved past a semi-progressive mid-2010's outlook on social events. And regardless of Hiveswap, how has Alternian society advanced to the point of the mass production of complicated technologies like computers, when the society has been consumed by violence? How does it remain so stable when most-all officers and other people of authority are off planet? And generally speaking, values of a fascist society, like control of the press and ruthless expansion, and values of the democratic world, like the free communication we see through Trollian and throughout Alternian society, don't go hand-in-hand.
I'm already willing to suspend my disbelief enough to believe that Zebruh, Equius, and Eridan are the most bigoted people we meet on all of Alternia, in a species that literally has bigotry built into their DNA. Especially when we have had people, here, in America, that have had such a powerful response to another human, with the same virtues and vices as you or I, but with a slightly different pigment in their skin, that they went around in white hoods lynching them, stringing them up by their necks into trees. It can be argued that violence against the lower classes happens all the time, but it's still not as common as you would think. Practically none of the trolls we meet in both main series Homestuck and in the friendsims care about the hemospectrum: None of them have done violence onto someone below them on the hemospectrum specifically because of the color of their blood, where you think the societal indoctrination would have progressed to the point where any time a blueblood meets a rustie it's supposed to be dealt with in the same way a Nazi deals with a Jew. So to me, minor things like the plausibility of the Hemospectrum as a biological construct hold such a trivial, minute, candle to the unimaginable sociological repercussions of the backbone of Alternia's society, that I'm willing to write it all of as "it just works, not because of Doc Scratch, or any other outside force, but because it does, and such a fact is inalienable."
While it certainly is frustrating to think, it never ruined my enjoyment of the story before, and I'm not going to let it now.
So I've spoken my mildly offensive piece, feel free to tell me what you think.

[VASKA]

Personally, I don't think Hiveswap continuity needs to be rectified to fit in with Homestuck continuity neatly, nor do I think there's a real issue with Hiveswap taking a more serious approach to something that was never really serious in the first place. It's counterintuitive to a lot of our gut reactions with stories that spend time building lore, like Lord of the Rings, but Hiveswap contradicting the fine details of lore isn't anything new. As has been mentioned time and time again, troll lore was always hastily cobbled together bullshit that wasn't built on consistency, but on audience reactions. Hiveswap doing it's own thing lore-wise, and in potentially more interesting directions, is just more of the same, and if that gives way to an actual consistency I don't think there's any point in arguing if the old, inconsistent lore is still valid or if it got retconned or whatever. People are going to use the version they like more in their fics, theories and art, and people are going to regard the details that stick in the fandom's mind most vividly as "canon". Bringing it back to Lord of the Rings, even the middle-earth tales have a ton of plot holes and inconsistencies in them, especially if you want to include Tolkien's letters (and ergo, including Hussie's formspring & tumblr).

Doing an edit for Hemospectrum stuff: Hussie has said that troll blood is that way because they have pigments in their blood, just like we have pigments in our eyes, and that Karkat's blood is lacking in pigment. I'd imagine it's governed by a more complex sort of X chromosome/Y chromosome situation, where a relatively small amount of a troll's DNA determines a staggering amount of their phenotype, so that you get pigment/lifespan/aggression/strength/powers all rolled into one, probably spurred on by the insanely unstable nature of troll DNA that's always giving rise to random mutations on the daily.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

meenah did not... develop those powers because she made sburb? nor was she even the first person to make sburb? nor does sburb "utilise advanced Alternian technology'??? maybe the reason your interpretation of this part of the text isn't intuitive is because it doesn't make any sense

did you not read the cursed timeline? she was there.

in pesterquest it's revealed that the hive-building technology is basically the same shit as what's in SBURB or SGRUB, from them ruins or whatever ontological paradox. this is the weakest part of my argument, i gotta be honest.

[JakeMorph]

yes, skaianet was the condesce's work. that was apparent before the skaianet history files. no, skaianet did not make sburb. sburb comes from the frog temple, which predates troll society. sollux got the code from the frog ruins long before the condesce had even formally met lord english.

you're reading it backwards. trolls have holographic grist based hive building technology (in a noncanon spinoff dating sim) because their technology was made to match sburb's tech, not the other way around. it says right there in the beginning of hivebent that trolls are made to design their own hives because their culture places importance on the ability to be an architect, i.e. because they are being trained to play sburb.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

Can you blame me for having it backwards? Everything in homestuck is backwards. Lord English is backwards. Lord English is (re)born at the end to justify the beginning. That doesn't serve my "it's earth society made alien for satirical purposes" interpretation.

You explain Alternia's misogyny by saying Caliborn is misogynist, but Caliborn is misogynist because the cherubs learned about human and troll cultures. It's a non-answer until you remember that Caliborn is intended to be a Goofy Take on a kind of fandom goon. He is created for satirical purposes, which means his actions are satirical. His actions, which include his influence on Alternian culture.

Trolls are grey humans with horns, except when it adds aesthetic flavor for them to be bugs. Also, they're raised by animals. You might find that explanation boring. I think explanations that aren't "trolls are grey humans with horns" to be boring. That's simply my preference.

[thorondraco]

Personally, I don't think Hiveswap continuity needs to be rectified to fit in with Homestuck continuity neatly, nor do I think there's a real issue with Hiveswap taking a more serious approach to something that was never really serious in the first place. It's counterintuitive to a lot of our gut reactions with stories that spend time building lore, like Lord of the Rings, but Hiveswap contradicting the fine details of lore isn't anything new. As has been mentioned time and time again, troll lore was always hastily cobbled together bullshit that wasn't built on consistency, but on audience reactions. Hiveswap doing it's own thing lore-wise, and in potentially more interesting directions, is just more of the same, and if that gives way to an actual consistency I don't think there's any point in arguing if the old, inconsistent lore is still valid or if it got retconned or whatever. People are going to use the version they like more in their fics, theories and art, and people are going to regard the details that stick in the fandom's mind most vividly as "canon". Bringing it back to Lord of the Rings, even the middle-earth tales have a ton of plot holes and inconsistencies in them, especially if you want to include Tolkien's letters (and ergo, including Hussie's formspring & tumblr).

Doing an edit for Hemospectrum stuff: Hussie has said that troll blood is that way because they have pigments in their blood, just like we have pigments in our eyes, and that Karkat's blood is lacking in pigment. I'd imagine it's governed by a more complex sort of X chromosome/Y chromosome situation, where a relatively small amount of a troll's DNA determines a staggering amount of their phenotype, so that you get pigment/lifespan/aggression/strength/powers all rolled into one, probably spurred on by the insanely unstable nature of troll DNA that's always giving rise to random mutations on the daily.

Here is a really weird thought. What if there is something a bit deliberate going on here? That things are being 'inconsistent with the past' and more 'the past is literally being altered and or evolved?"

Thinking back to the bad end for Equiss in pesterquest, we see the Reader split into three states and seeing three events that could explain why Equiss lost his horn. Lost it in a mere car accident, lost it as a tiny grub after he made a far too bold jump, and losing it after faltering in a rage fueled duel against a robot.

What if originally there really wasn't anything major going on with Alternia's bullshit cause in universe hussie had no talent for serious world-building? We got more world buildy shit only AFTER Hussie dies in universe. Which in a sense is Real world hussie gaining some interest in that aspect, and a result in universe of hussie's influence weakening.

Now we got two wannabe authors competing, both of which who have a desire for world-building and a greater talent in practical storytelling. So what if this is these two beings remaking the past and adding more meat to it? Giving it depth that it actually lacked originally?

[JakeMorph]

you dont even need to look at pesterquest to draw the conclusion that alternia's history is constantly being altered. we know english was using the handmaid as a time travelling paintbrush, we know that even though lord english rarely makes himself seen he was ALREADY THERE on alternia, and the friendsim introduces us to the possibility that scratch himself has a little bit of direct influence over the timeline (something touched upon when he heals the scratch left in the narrative at the end of act 5 but never elaborated on).

[calamityCons]

Doc Scratch’s influence on the timeline and on Alternia is also a reason why I think the worldbuilding needs to be reconstructed entirely. I know that the in-universe explanations for the horrors of Alternia and Troll society is Doc Scratch Did It. I also know that Doc Scratch’s insidious influence on the world and the lives of Universe A (Troll universe) is engaging because Doc Scratch himself is an entertaining character with engaging traits and a deliciously diabolical communication style.

The biggest thing I DON’T like about this whole setup is the attempts to make Alternia a setting for an entire game series when its foundations are shaky WITHOUT the immoral influences of Doc Scratch. If Joey and the Hiveswap Crew are all going to DO SOMETHING about Alternia’s situation, they will be forced to confront the root of the problem and will likely die via Lord English Lazers because this asshole is a stupid unbeatable boss who just keeps changing the goddamn rules to ensure he exists and is The Best And Toughest And Most Important. At that point my enjoyment of the concept runs dry because I don’t like it when the after school Shonen Iisekai webcomic with flash animation and amazing spectacle chapter endings I love becomes a fucking depressing sci-fi tragedy I don’t love over the course of a decade.

[thorondraco]

you dont even need to look at pesterquest to draw the conclusion that alternia's history is constantly being altered. we know english was using the handmaid as a time travelling paintbrush, we know that even though lord english rarely makes himself seen he was ALREADY THERE on alternia, and the friendsim introduces us to the possibility that scratch himself has a little bit of direct influence over the timeline (something touched upon when he heals the scratch left in the narrative at the end of act 5 but never elaborated on).

IT seems that the dark spaces between prose and picture are a lot, lot more malleable than paradox space would dare let you think.

Though that leaves a question. Does Lord english actually have any power over the so called 'authorial architecture?' or is he simply the thing the architecture was designed to create? Honestly i feel its the latter. I think he lost awareness of the narrative entirely either way.

Let us say that the White orb is what made Doc scratch Doc scratch rather than lord english. The white orb had to go for lord english to be doc scratch. Thus went his omniscience as he became lord english. It might have also made Lord english vulnerable. Doc scratch could in fact die because of the white orb and its connection to death.
I also wonder if the white orb is still part of Lord english because of his ability to kill ghosts. Because while his heart aspect might be applicable, it might not bypass immortality rule. The reason why Dirk couldn't destroy Caliborn's soul was because of his unconditional immortality more than likely. So its possible the aspects of a conditional immortality can come into play. Either way, he has no omniscience anymore.

In the end neither lord english nor doc scratch seemed to have the power to counter what John did. And i am pretty damn sure that the intent was 'this is John literally changing the original course of the story'. And considering the chaos that the Reader has unleashed, yea this is not a power anyone willingly unleashes.
Add to that whta ARadia says in pesterquest. The 'powers that be' appear blind to the going ons in the dream bubbles, in the furthest ring. Which may mean that while WE were privy to what was going on there, the 'powers that be' had no idea what was...
What if the furthest ring's events were supposed to be Lord English's post canon?

Actually i wonder if Lord english has any presence at all in Hiveswap... The reader is incapable of going back into hiveswap so what if lord english is also cut off from it? I can imagine him trying to timeteleport there to see what is going on but he ends up in a similar situation as the Reader, as if alternia ceased to exist for 11 days.

[thorondraco]

Doc Scratch’s influence on the timeline and on Alternia is also a reason why I think the worldbuilding needs to be reconstructed entirely. I know that the in-universe explanations for the horrors of Alternia and Troll society is Doc Scratch Did It. I also know that Doc Scratch’s insidious influence on the world and the lives of Universe A (Troll universe) is engaging because Doc Scratch himself is an entertaining character with engaging traits and a deliciously diabolical communication style.

The biggest thing I DON’T like about this whole setup is the attempts to make Alternia a setting for an entire game series when its foundations are shaky WITHOUT the immoral influences of Doc Scratch. If Joey and the Hiveswap Crew are all going to DO SOMETHING about Alternia’s situation, they will be forced to confront the root of the problem and will likely die via Lord English Lazers because this asshole is a stupid unbeatable boss who just keeps changing the goddamn rules to ensure he exists and is The Best And Toughest And Most Important. At that point my enjoyment of the concept runs dry because I don’t like it when the after school Shonen Iisekai webcomic with flash animation and amazing spectacle chapter endings I love becomes a fucking depressing sci-fi tragedy I don’t love over the course of a decade.

Hoenstly its why i think that A, lord english can't go into Hiveswap, and B, Joey''s fate is to end up in HS^2 under some circumstance, possibly with an entourage of Trolls.

Basically Hiveswap is a separate story to Homestuck. Somehow someone made a narrative disconnected to homestuck while taking place on its timeline, like the timeline intersects with homestuck just there. It is very very possibly that Lord english is incapable of interacting with Alternia during that 11 day span. Or even, any attempt TO interact with it just results in a doomed timeline.

I don't think its the case that he made the timeline as it would make it part of Homestuck (not to mention we don't know if he has that power). That might be true for Doc scratch.

Basically my evidence is the Reader's inability to go back into Hiveswap, even the friendsims. Basically we know for a fact that REtcon allows one to enter timelines that were erased. It is entirely based upon if it appears in the Story yet. Its why he couldn't appear in Nepeta's cave, because in terms of the narrative that didn't happen Yet.

So that could mean that Hiveswap is part of another story entirely. Basically it gives a set condition. Retcon does not allow one to go to point in reality that hasn't been part of Homestuck's story yet.

[egg]

The biggest thing I DON’T like about this whole setup is the attempts to make Alternia a setting for an entire game series when its foundations are shaky WITHOUT the immoral influences of Doc Scratch. If Joey and the Hiveswap Crew are all going to DO SOMETHING about Alternia’s situation, they will be forced to confront the root of the problem and will likely die via Lord English Lazers because this asshole is a stupid unbeatable boss who just keeps changing the goddamn rules to ensure he exists and is The Best And Toughest And Most Important. At that point my enjoyment of the concept runs dry because I don’t like it when the after school Shonen Iisekai webcomic with flash animation and amazing spectacle chapter endings I love becomes a fucking depressing sci-fi tragedy I don’t love over the course of a decade.

Even without Doc Scratch's influence, Hiveswap would've ended up being quite depressing anyhow due to its status as a prequel. Because of Hivebent, outside of exterior influence all of the non-mainline trolls are essentially doomed to die. I think they could pull off a happy ending, but due to hindsight it'd end up being bittersweet anyway.
Unless HS^2 changes that, or they decide to pull off some sort of "they all manage to escape from homestuck" BS, which I think is entirely possible albeit boring.

[thorondraco]

The biggest thing I DON’T like about this whole setup is the attempts to make Alternia a setting for an entire game series when its foundations are shaky WITHOUT the immoral influences of Doc Scratch. If Joey and the Hiveswap Crew are all going to DO SOMETHING about Alternia’s situation, they will be forced to confront the root of the problem and will likely die via Lord English Lazers because this asshole is a stupid unbeatable boss who just keeps changing the goddamn rules to ensure he exists and is The Best And Toughest And Most Important. At that point my enjoyment of the concept runs dry because I don’t like it when the after school Shonen Iisekai webcomic with flash animation and amazing spectacle chapter endings I love becomes a fucking depressing sci-fi tragedy I don’t love over the course of a decade.

Even without Doc Scratch's influence, Hiveswap would've ended up being quite depressing anyhow due to its status as a prequel. Because of Hivebent, outside of exterior influence all of the non-mainline trolls are essentially doomed to die. I think they could pull off a happy ending, but due to hindsight it'd end up being bittersweet anyway.
Unless HS^2 changes that, or they decide to pull off some sort of "they all manage to escape from homestuck" BS, which I think is entirely possible albeit boring.

It really depends on if their escape plays into someone else's hands. That the plan is for Joey to fight and struggle but be unable to change fate without dire consequences. Then comes along the puppetmaster promising the survival of her new friends along with some purpose, playing the savior when the reality is he was the one who brought this all together. New minions.

I literally think its Dirk who is behind hiveswap. It makes too mcuh sense, someone who is able to author a story, who has no qualms with abusing his influence. And short of a twist here, Calliope is unwilling to abuse her powers.
The only question is HOW Dirk influenced the shadowy place between prose and picture enough to make Hiveswap. How did he influence the past when he is in the future.

[Dream Muttman]

Trolls have not had their technology since the beginning of their species. Their sociology is shaped by history to be caste-based because they have biological castes and no social incentives to change that, even now that they maybe could. Equity ethics are not that important to an empire that subjugates and/or destroys every alien race within its reach and considers its own subjects to be utterly disposable.

Even with intervention, we only know of one such means that has worked, which is the Condesce's magical powers which seem to come from her title despite her being switched out for Feferi in the cast of players. She has no technology with which to grant herself psychic powers at that point in time, otherwise she already would have, one would assume.

Barring intervention, trolls have to contend with the facts of their biology. We have no reason to think the idea of caste lifespan disparity is a lie as far as I'm aware.

Aliens having essential biological differences is interesting worldbuilding, not an ethics violation on its own.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

Homestuck is an Isekai? Damn. Homestuck is the Sword Art Online of gnosticism.

I like ThePungeonMaster's take on how Alternia is ineffective as a satire, but keep in mind that most of what we see of Alternia's newer worldbuilding is from the FriendSims. I think being forced to befriend a KKK member would give a message that nobody wants to present. I'm more than okay with sacrificing some versimiltude for this.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

Barring intervention, trolls have to contend with the facts of their biology. We have no reason to think the idea of caste lifespan disparity is a lie as far as I'm aware.

Aliens having essential biological differences is interesting worldbuilding, not an ethics violation on its own.

Humans used to die of smallpox, but then vaccines were invented and it was erradicated. Death by childbirth used to be more common before the c-section. Hand washing leads to fewer infections from surgery. People have children later in life because of birth control and abortion.

I don't like that you're putting my headcanon in opposition to what's interesting. I don't like that you consider your headcanon worldbuilding and my headcanon to be pedantry. It's still worldbuilding, even if I'm putting it in a different direction. I'm not even the one who has an objection with trolls having "natural" discrepancies in lifespan; I was thinking of Be the Sea Dweller Lowblood's issue with it and how the development threw a wrench in its own worldbuilding. I'm saying that it's likely that these discrepancies are exacerbated because of racist economic factors. Call me a Marxist SJW; I don't give a shit. Just don't say that I'm a killjoy that doesn't know how to have fun.

[Dream Muttman]

I didn't say your headcanon was "a killjoy". You're free to have it and enjoy it. I asked you to summarize it earlier because I didn't understand if you even held it or if you were positing various hypotheticals.

I do think it sounds like a rebuke against any kind of fantasy alien biology existing in Homestuck. Believing trolls of different castes live for different lengths of time as in the comic's exposition is not equivalent to falling for scientific racism. Having to contend with their fantasy biology creates ethical questions we don't ask of ourselves, while asking the very human resource allocation question is done every day (Plus you get to ask it even if they live different spans).

I don't know where you got all those implications about your character from my original post.