Carapaces Are People Too

[foreverFlummoxed]

now i'm somewhat disappointed that wv ended up on the meteor with characters to whom he bore no relation.

WV instead goes with PM and she has to carry him one handed for three years chasing Jack

it would be heartwarming to see him and john reunite, after only knowing john as the Windy One

If I am completely honest, it might have ended up worse for WV if he was with John.
Example 1: John has less of a connection with WV than he does with Davesprite (while both of them did save John's life, he only knew about Davesprite's sacrifice which leads to) and the entire way that John treats Davesprite is what lead to DS feeling like he wasn't as good/wanted/important as Dave the human
Example B: John dies (again) in the retcon timeline, while Jade still had Dave(sprite) and Nanna(sprite) to keep her company, who would WV have had?

Honestly speaking if WV wasn't on the meteor, there was not another logical and satisfying option (although staying with Serenity and PM would come close, though being very silly)

[calamityCons]

I especially would have loved a meaningful reunion between John and WV. WV did so much to help John out in the early game (so to speak), and John himself did mention he felt WV had a spark of heroism inside him. I wish WV's interactions with Karkat and Dave were in any way more detailed. I wish Kanaya didn't dismiss and infantilize WV. I wish Roxy didn't call MSPAR "the velveteen chess guy". When will Dads Diamonds and Dames update.

[luigi]

now i'm somewhat disappointed that wv ended up on the meteor with characters to whom he bore no relation.

WV instead goes with PM and she has to carry him one handed for three years chasing Jack

it would be heartwarming to see him and john reunite, after only knowing john as the Windy One

If I am completely honest, it might have ended up worse for WV if he was with John.
Example 1: John has less of a connection with WV than he does with Davesprite (while both of them did save John's life, he only knew about Davesprite's sacrifice which leads to) and the entire way that John treats Davesprite is what lead to DS feeling like he wasn't as good/wanted/important as Dave the human
Example B: John dies (again) in the retcon timeline, while Jade still had Dave(sprite) and Nanna(sprite) to keep her company, who would WV have had?

Honestly speaking if WV wasn't on the meteor, there was not another logical and satisfying option (although staying with Serenity and PM would come close, though being very silly)

Davesprite died with John in the retcon timeline. The Davesprite that became Davepeta is still the original.

[TH4NK YOU B3N]

WV has lived a very, very long life. He deserves the opportunity to be the other guy.

[thorondraco]

WV has lived a very, very long life. He deserves the opportunity to be the other guy.

rip wayward vagabond.....

we don't know how he died though.

[sorbicCondition]

While I don't really disagree with this thread in thinking that carapacians are sentient and can have cool character stuff, I think it's pretty fair for the story to have put them on the backburner. There's really only so much you can do with them while still telling a coherent story about kids playing a game. Acts 5 and 6 had enough characters and settings to introduce, could you imagine if an intermission-style section got shoehorned in there too? It wouldn't be worth bloating the story with it. The best carapacian content we can get nowadays exists in fancontent (and maybe the bonus updates for hs^2? I know they show up in those but I'm not subbed to the patreon yet to check it out).

[ZingDev]

Example 1: John has less of a connection with WV than he does with Davesprite (while both of them did save John's life, he only knew about Davesprite's sacrifice which leads to) and the entire way that John treats Davesprite is what lead to DS feeling like he wasn't as good/wanted/important as Dave the human

Dave's feeling of inadequacy was a struggle that he had from the beginning because the "doom" status that he had. John treatment of Davesprite was a reaction to complications of him dating Jade, the breakup and him making fun of his dad's death. also John has treated Davesprite the same as he treated Dave, like never even considered him to be doomed.

John would have at least try to understand WV, considering he has some knowledge of his history.

[foreverFlummoxed]

Example 1: John has less of a connection with WV than he does with Davesprite (while both of them did save John's life, he only knew about Davesprite's sacrifice which leads to) and the entire way that John treats Davesprite is what lead to DS feeling like he wasn't as good/wanted/important as Dave the human

Dave's feeling of inadequacy was a struggle that he had from the beginning because the "doom" status that he had. John treatment of Davesprite was a reaction to complications of him dating Jade, the breakup and him making fun of his dad's death. also John has treated Davesprite the same as he treated Dave, like never even considered him to be doomed.

John would have at least try to understand WV, considering he has some knowledge of his history.

Last off-topic tangent about Davesprite: Since their SECOND conversation (because the first conversation he was still fully human Dave, and John didn't even believe Dave could time travel, so he just thought it was just Dave messing with him, John was convinced of Dave's spriteness later) John has always seen Davesprite as lesser than Dave


And after 3 YEARS spent on a ship with him, nothing changed
and a better example:

only feels bad after the fact he's dead

(side-note page 4732, and sort of 4733, is the only time John says Davesprite is just Dave with wings and no other significant differences but only then (timeframe 1 year after cascade))

Back to actual carapacians,
John actually did meet up with WV...

but only like one sentence from John about him, my suspicion is that even if WV was on the ship, John would probably have not recognized WV at all
(John's not really the brightest) also they met up in that meeting that no-one remembers except John (the one right before everyone was tossed around to different planets and John goes "missing")

The point is John was a bad friend to Davesprite, and keep WV away from him at all costs.

[calamityCons]

The concept of people in-story treating other people also in the story as less human and less real than THEY, PERSONALLY consider THEMSELVES to be reflects very poorly on the characters. It makes them come off as callous, egocentric, and inherently selfish beings who couldn't conceive of another person being "real." It reminds me of Monika from Doki Doki Literature Club, because she thinks just because she knows that she herself is not real, that somehow makes her more special and important than her friends, and she can't bear to imagine that her love for the Player is also a construct of her being Not Real.

I do not think that it is a good thing that the closer these characters come to realizing they Aren't Real because they are fictional characters, the more they mistreat the people around them. Dirk, Calliope, John, they all seem to gravitate toward a really unpalatable philosophy and I would be happy if the story went in a different direction, please.

At that point though, I may as well cut myself out of the fandom, but like. I feel strongly that these characters deserve to be treated better, if only to help other people who love them to get gratification and validation and shit. I know I can't be the only one who is upset with these developments. But that might be too emotional of me, I don't fucking know anymore.

[luigi]

The concept of people in-story treating other people also in the story as less human and less real than THEY, PERSONALLY consider THEMSELVES to be reflects very poorly on the characters. It makes them come off as callous, egocentric, and inherently selfish beings who couldn't conceive of another person being "real." It reminds me of Monika from Doki Doki Literature Club, because she thinks just because she knows that she herself is not real, that somehow makes her more special and important than her friends, and she can't bear to imagine that her love for the Player is also a construct of her being Not Real.

I do not think that it is a good thing that the closer these characters come to realizing they Aren't Real because they are fictional characters, the more they mistreat the people around them. Dirk, Calliope, John, they all seem to gravitate toward a really unpalatable philosophy and I would be happy if the story went in a different direction, please.

At that point though, I may as well cut myself out of the fandom, but like. I feel strongly that these characters deserve to be treated better, if only to help other people who love them to get gratification and validation and shit. I know I can't be the only one who is upset with these developments. But that might be too emotional of me, I don't fucking know anymore.

I mean.... they aren't real people so there isn't anything disrespectful or callous about writing them this way. And I actually think it's fair for someone like John, in fact most people, even if they mean well, to view someone like Davesprite as not a real Dave. They don't MEAN any harm by it, it's just a tough concept to grasp so your mind defaults to a position that could potentially hurt some feelings.

I've actually noticed that about John tho, a lot of what he says really has the potential to hurt his friends, but they ALWAYS give him the benefit of the doubt (Dave's gayness, how John always made gay jokes, Davesprites not realness, calling Rose too serious and snooty all the time etc) because they know he means well and that he's just ignorant about certain topics. It's a good sign though that EVERYTIME anyone calls him out on this (the best example being when Rose outright said to John he's being mean in A5A2) he apologizes and genuinely tries to adjust what he thinks and says.

[overThinker]

The concept of people in-story treating other people also in the story as less human and less real than THEY, PERSONALLY consider THEMSELVES to be reflects very poorly on the characters. It makes them come off as callous, egocentric, and inherently selfish beings who couldn't conceive of another person being "real." It reminds me of Monika from Doki Doki Literature Club, because she thinks just because she knows that she herself is not real, that somehow makes her more special and important than her friends, and she can't bear to imagine that her love for the Player is also a construct of her being Not Real.

I do not think that it is a good thing that the closer these characters come to realizing they Aren't Real because they are fictional characters, the more they mistreat the people around them. Dirk, Calliope, John, they all seem to gravitate toward a really unpalatable philosophy and I would be happy if the story went in a different direction, please.

At that point though, I may as well cut myself out of the fandom, but like. I feel strongly that these characters deserve to be treated better, if only to help other people who love them to get gratification and validation and shit. I know I can't be the only one who is upset with these developments. But that might be too emotional of me, I don't fucking know anymore.

I mean.... they aren't real people so there isn't anything disrespectful or callous about writing them this way. And I actually think it's fair for someone like John, in fact most people, even if they mean well, to view someone like Davesprite as not a real Dave. They don't MEAN any harm by it, it's just a tough concept to grasp so your mind defaults to a position that could potentially hurt some feelings.

I've actually noticed that about John tho, a lot of what he says really has the potential to hurt his friends, but they ALWAYS give him the benefit of the doubt (Dave's gayness, how John always made gay jokes, Davesprites not realness, calling Rose too serious and snooty all the time etc) because they know he means well and that he's just ignorant about certain topics. It's a good sign though that EVERYTIME anyone calls him out on this (the best example being when Rose outright said to John he's being mean in A5A2) he apologizes and genuinely tries to adjust what he thinks and says.

the reason for some characters' status as "not as real" as others is to demonstrate the need for narrative agency and conflict in the story. this is why the candy timeline was so frustrating to john; there were no reality-threatening conflicts akin to those that homestuck proper had acclimated him to, and since he is so used to simply being guided along by the narrative and his more self-aware friends, he didn't know how to handle such a "useless" (or, as rose or dirk would say, "inessential") timeline.

the problem lies in how narratively essential the carapacians are, and how neglected they come to be. spades slick, b1 jack, wv, pm, and ar have had an objectively indispensable influence on the plot, which is why it doesn't make sense when they are shafted by the story. i'm willing to tolerate other characters dismissing them, because characters by definition are supposed to be subjective in the comparably large scope of the narrative; but to have canon itself write them off is somewhat questionable.

[ZingDev]

last say before dropping the subject: john being a shitty friend to Davesprite is dishearting because of how John was as a character in act 1-5 where he is clearly a good friend to everyone he considers a friend. an also it wasn't just John that was shit there but also davesprite(poor reason to break up with jade, made fun of his dead dad, overall kept thing to himself) but the more i saw reading back the more i kinda see it as the situation being shit, John, Davesprite and Jade were isolated from the story and it sucks. this is also criticism on act 6 dropping anything involving sburb and sturr up drama between the kids on the ship. but that's all.

Carapaces could have played a nice role there, they still had mspaint to interact with, right?

[calamityCons]

It would have super neat if AR was on the Meteor alongside WV, because then the things that we all disliked about it (such as Rose's underage drinking) would have a different reaction. Instead of just bizarre reluctance to directly confront the problem and stop Rose from having those drinking problems, AR would ENFORCE THE LAW and stops all illegal activities, which also include Domestic Abuse like the shallow GamRezi black romance that nobody on the Meteor enjoyed, etc.

[thorondraco]

It would have super neat if AR was on the Meteor alongside WV, because then the things that we all disliked about it (such as Rose's underage drinking) would have a different reaction. Instead of just bizarre reluctance to directly confront the problem and stop Rose from having those drinking problems, AR would ENFORCE THE LAW and stops all illegal activities, which also include Domestic Abuse like the shallow GamRezi black romance that nobody on the Meteor enjoyed, etc.

That is why he had to die though, you see. If he survived he would ahve stopped rose from becoming an alcoholic and stopped the domestic abuse.

Its kinda of the asinine thing about it. Characters were killed off so the timeline could progress. Even narrative control has its limitations. It could make equiss not fight to save himself and succumb to hoplessness and perversion. It couldn't, for example, keep him from saving nepeta if she happeend to have been there already.
I kinda hope out there in the void is a still living Equiss, flying through the abyss beatiung the everyfucking shit out of a gamzee to protect his moirail.

It also why neither kanaya nor feferi were allowed to tap into their aspects while Eridan was. A healer and aflie player could ahve endured, stopped eridan, and saved those who would die. And in a a way why the wayward vagabond kinda became a pet for a while, unable to properly communciate and stuck with people thinking he was a bit dumb, not knowing his true rebel nature.

[ZingDev]

It would have super neat if AR was on the Meteor alongside WV, because then the things that we all disliked about it (such as Rose's underage drinking) would have a different reaction. Instead of just bizarre reluctance to directly confront the problem and stop Rose from having those drinking problems, AR would ENFORCE THE LAW and stops all illegal activities, which also include Domestic Abuse like the shallow GamRezi black romance that nobody on the Meteor enjoyed, etc.

That is why he had to die though, you see. If he survived he would ahve stopped rose from becoming an alcoholic and stopped the domestic abuse.

Its kinda of the asinine thing about it. Characters were killed off so the timeline could progress. Even narrative control has its limitations. It could make equiss not fight to save himself and succumb to hoplessness and perversion. It couldn't, for example, keep him from saving nepeta if she happeend to have been there already.
I kinda hope out there in the void is a still living Equiss, flying through the abyss beatiung the everyfucking shit out of a gamzee to protect his moirail.

It also why neither kanaya nor feferi were allowed to tap into their aspects while Eridan was. A healer and aflie player could ahve endured, stopped eridan, and saved those who would die. And in a a way why the wayward vagabond kinda became a pet for a while, unable to properly communciate and stuck with people thinking he was a bit dumb, not knowing his true rebel nature.

i don't think that was the reason he died, pretty sure it was just to rise the stakes and make Jack more of a threat. but thinking back, he could have been brought back along with the white queen and have them raise/be sudo-parants to either dirk and/or roxy to bring them back in to the story while also nodding to the fact that AR was Dave's exile and WQ was Rose's.

[thorondraco]

It would have super neat if AR was on the Meteor alongside WV, because then the things that we all disliked about it (such as Rose's underage drinking) would have a different reaction. Instead of just bizarre reluctance to directly confront the problem and stop Rose from having those drinking problems, AR would ENFORCE THE LAW and stops all illegal activities, which also include Domestic Abuse like the shallow GamRezi black romance that nobody on the Meteor enjoyed, etc.

That is why he had to die though, you see. If he survived he would ahve stopped rose from becoming an alcoholic and stopped the domestic abuse.

Its kinda of the asinine thing about it. Characters were killed off so the timeline could progress. Even narrative control has its limitations. It could make equiss not fight to save himself and succumb to hoplessness and perversion. It couldn't, for example, keep him from saving nepeta if she happeend to have been there already.
I kinda hope out there in the void is a still living Equiss, flying through the abyss beatiung the everyfucking shit out of a gamzee to protect his moirail.

It also why neither kanaya nor feferi were allowed to tap into their aspects while Eridan was. A healer and aflie player could ahve endured, stopped eridan, and saved those who would die. And in a a way why the wayward vagabond kinda became a pet for a while, unable to properly communciate and stuck with people thinking he was a bit dumb, not knowing his true rebel nature.

i don't think that was the reason he died, pretty sure it was just to rise the stakes and make Jack more of a threat. but thinking back, he could have been brought back along with the white queen and have them raise/be sudo-parants to either dirk and/or roxy to bring them back in to the story while also nodding to the fact that AR was Dave's exile and WQ was Rose's.

he would have to have survived the scratch. but it is not implausible.

but while drama was part of it, it was also because he would have brought some semblance of stability.
Gamzee's purpose in the story and in this scenario was to make everyone weaker before they got to the session.

[ZingDev]

he would have to have survived the scratch. but it is not implausible.

but while drama was part of it, it was also because he would have brought some semblance of stability.
Gamzee's purpose in the story and in this scenario was to make everyone weaker before they got to the session.

talking about alpha AR from the alpha kid session. the carapace will always have a variation of themselves in each game.

[thorondraco]

he would have to have survived the scratch. but it is not implausible.

but while drama was part of it, it was also because he would have brought some semblance of stability.
Gamzee's purpose in the story and in this scenario was to make everyone weaker before they got to the session.

talking about alpha AR from the alpha kid session. the carapace will always have a variation of themselves in each game.

that is true. but we never see alpha perigrin either.

[ZingDev]

he would have to have survived the scratch. but it is not implausible.

but while drama was part of it, it was also because he would have brought some semblance of stability.
Gamzee's purpose in the story and in this scenario was to make everyone weaker before they got to the session.

talking about alpha AR from the alpha kid session. the carapace will always have a variation of themselves in each game.

that is true. but we never see alpha perigrin either.

yeah, and that is a huge shame and miss opportunity.

[calamityCons]

Roxy and Dirk could have been really cool and weird if they were whackos raised by carapaces. Can you imagine Roxy growing up with Carapace Mom and Carapace Dad and Carapace Aunts and Uncles? And Dirk “raising himself” always seemed ridiculous and impossible from my perspective so maybe he could be the one obsessed with his “ancestor” because he was raised by Alpha Dave’s robots Sawtooth and Squarewave.

I dunno man the whole reason I made this thread was because Carapace Raised Roxy Who Loves Her Chess Family is a huge missed opportunity and I’m sad about it.